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Goods and adventure price list plus adventure comparison tables
This is an up to date price sheet for goods and adventures for the server newfoundland created by me and Nukar. It has evolved to include an adventure comparion sheet based on the updated market values.
The adventure comparison may be found on the 2nd page
If you have found a fault or a price that is not up to date, whisper any of the people mentioned in the sheet or whisper me to be added to the list of updaters.
nice list as well stalk :) goes smoothly together with MRH4Ms post :)
A big factor in trade prices is dependent upon....well i'm not gonna tell you that, obviously, but you're wrong, nevertheless.
There are of course other factors, such as time of day and current offers on tab, a sheet like this cannot cover everything. Any experienced trader will have most of these numbers in their head rather than on paper. This is more a guide for players unfamiliar with the pricing. Thanks for understanding.
Thank you guys for this guide. In a game where there are so many factors I appreciate having a solid starting point.
The alternative is running blind into the melee with just your **** in your hand.
So again thanks for you time and effort in providing this.
kind regards,
Naturist
Thanks for this - the time and effort you and Nukar have put into this is much appreciated:)
Well this sheet has been open for public a few days now. And im glad to see a lot off you actually use it. Thnx for that.
Ofcourse ppl like to debate the prices we at FWB use... but hé, all have their own motives to do so ;)
Currently we are looking into expanding the sheets with more information. We got some ideas of our own. But if you would like us to include other stuf post it here, or mail me ingame (/w i dont always have time for). Im looking forward to your input and ideas.
Cheers
Nukar
Calculated market value of the goods from an average loot spot of multiplayer adventures to help with loot spot price evaluation
Coming soon: Evaluation of adventure troop losses in coins for different tactics and comparison with average loot to establish updated market-actual values of adventures.
I was looking at this, but in the end, something fix like this probably isn't always going to work, because everything is depends on what player build/needs
and for starter, definitely not coins.
for example gathering fish might look easy, but actually is not that easy because long walk between resource>storehouse.
other example is gathering stone also look easy but same as fish, long walking.
water is cheap because it's not using building license, I bet it will rise if actually building it require a building license.
on market both almost had no price, but both is essential for the game, you can't make buff without fish.
fish & bread actually had to be higher because they are so important in this game, I refuse following the price based on calculator.
making bread require 4 different building to make, and the cost upgrading all building is same for everything except mines/water and not to mention time to replace all wheat field.
You misunderstand, this is not the prices anyone desire the goods to have, this is the prices that goods are actually being traded at, more or less. You can debate why its wrong all you want, but this is what you will have to pay for them on the trade tab.
Also, its not fixed, its being continously updated as the market shifts, its not a perfect reflection of the prices of course but better than the trade calcs.
Why are the adventures Outlaw, Sons, Witch, and Traitors prices so low?
Because people feel like they lose to much troops for the rewards they can get on these adventures. Wait for the update we are working on it will give some clarity on this matter (based on up-to-date marketprices)
Thank you very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukar
I am looking forward to some more realistic adventure prices.
Most of my coins come from selling them and I like to be able to show people why I price them as I do.
I will be taking the sheet offline for a few minutes this evening (CET).
This action is needed for the promissed upgrade.
After the downtime I wont publish the new content instantly becasue I want to provide you with a bugfree sheet.
Untill then keep checking the sheets for up-to-date market prices provided to you by FWB.
Cheers
Nukar
Edit 19.00 CET Downtime has started be back asap
Edit 19.18 CET Up and runnuing again apart from 1 litle acces issue, wich has been fixed, all went well. thank you for your patience.
As promised we have just released our upgrade! I am very happy with what we have done, I hope you are too.
We have added more information to the buy_sell sheets.
1: Lootspot values. These are based on average lootdrops and current market values of the resources gained.
2: Unit cost. these are based on the needs to train a unit and current market values of the used resources
3: Adventure comparison tables based on loot and xp gained per lost troop.
We will attempt to show what the cost of using a specific tactic for an adventure will be and compare those to the rewards you can get in return.
In the first table we have combined the cost for lost units and the value of the loot you will get in return to rank the adventures and their tactics based on loot return.
The second table compares the amount of xp gained per lost coin.
Both tables are sorted from most to least profitable.
For most adventures we have included at least longbow and crossbow tactic maps. For some adventures we also included fast loot and block versions when we felt that their popularity warranted it.
The last table we included will show unit costs. This is the same table shown on the buy_sell tab. But here we have included an inside view on how we calculated the cost per unit.
As you can tell from this table all information shown is based on current market values. As market changes these tables change with it.
For those who aren't interested in more math, have a look now at [FWB] Goods and adventure price list
If you want to know more about the calculations keep on reading.
We started with looking at the popular versions on how to play an adventure. We have derived a set of guides that suits current gameplay.
Adventure cost
We took those guides and noted needed units and expected maximal losses.
For every guide we used the "cost per unit" (show in adventures tab) to calculate the expected loss value per guide.
Example:
The 'Island of pirates' adventure, that uses Longbows and no blocking is expected to have a maximum loss of 610 recruits.
1 recruit is worth 2 coins based on current market values (rounded). For the adventure cost we did not use the rounded figures.
610 recruits * 2 coins would mean you will lose a maximum of 1220 coins on this adventure.
Since it is maximum you can expect your actual losses to be below this figure. Since we don't use rounded numbers for the adventure cost the table shows its 1201 coins based on todays prices.
Adventure rewards
We had some discussions how to calculate the rewards. Lootdrops are random. We debated min value, max value and ranges.
Min or max would give wrong expectations. Ranges would turn out to wide for everyone to make a conclusion. So we decided to take average lootdrop value.
This means we had to take all possible loot drops, their drop % and the current market value. From here we could calculate an average value for the drop for 1 lootspot per adventure.
We took the loot tables from the wiki our German friends created and worked from there.
Example:
For the 'Island of pirate' adventure lootslot #1 will look like this:amount __resource__value___chance (%)((800*<market value>*33.3) + (1000*<market value>*16.7) + (700*<market value>*33.3) + (900*<market value>*16.7)) /100 =
800______elog______350_____33.3
1000_____elog______437.5___16.7
700______gran______525____33.3
900______gran______675____16.7
((350*33.3) + (437.5*16.7) + (525*33.3) + (675*16.7)) /100 =
(11655 + 7306.25 + 17482.5 + 11272.5) /100 = 477.1625
slot average value (coins) = 477
We have calculated this for every single lootslot involved and added totals.
If an adventure has more then 1 lootspot we multiplied the totals to see total adventure rewards.
This formula is also the base for the "Loot value" column besides the Lootspot market prices in the Buy_sell sheets.
Adventure tab
Here we combined the outcome of the previous.
In the first table we set max loss versus average reward and calculated expected coin return per coin invested.
<reward>/<cost> = <coin gain per coin invested> rounded to 1 decimal
The second table we set coins invested versus total XP for the given guide to show XP per invested coin
<XP>/<cost> = <XP per coin invested>
So have a look:
[FWB] Goods and adventure price list
There may still be incorrect references and errors in the calculations, send us a whisper if you think some of the data is wrong. Any feedback will be much appreciated.
Cheers ,
Stalk and Nukar
The updated adventure comparison charts is located on the 2nd page
This is awesome.
My guild will be happy to get this.
Good job.
Best price sheet on the forum.
It's a must for any new, or indeed experienced, player on this game.
Bookmarked!
Does this sound cheesy when it comes from FWB member? ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr4nkel
About the same level of cheesyness as refering to the numbers coming out of your ass as "research".
Okay, pretty nice, but there's one thing that's bothering me.
The column "Coin gained per coin lost" is nonsical. If an adventure would cost 100 coin and only have a loot of 1 coin, it would say that i gain 0,01 coin per coin invested, whereas I actually loose 99 coins, so I don't gain anything. If you really want a "coin gained per coin lost" column, the right calculation would be:
("coins gained" - "coins lost") / "coins lost"
However, all I really wanna know is profit, so you should just get rid of this column altogether and replace it with total profit.
I'm looking at the sheet hidden_reward_calculations, and it seems a bit off to me.
It's a bit hard to explain, so I'll just use the example of the adventure Mothers love.
The actual expected value of the adventure is in cell B28. This number is correct, provided that the numbers in cells B19:AG26 are accurate.
However, in cell G28 you multiply this number by the value of cell E28 (E28*B28).
Cell G28 is then used for further calculations. Either I'm completely overlooking something, or you're doubling and even tripling some of the adventure rewards.
Another thing I've noticed is that something the odds don't add up to 100%. For example U35:U38.
@Popvitsj
Thank you for your feedback. Ill try to explain why and how the sheets work as they do now:
We have discussed several options. At first we showed every number involved. This provided to much data to look at. It turned into a mess.Quote:
However, all I really wanna know is profit, so you should just get rid of this column altogether and replace it with total profit.
So we had to make a choice which number we wanted to show.
Raw coin profit (coins lost - coins gained) was an option. However it didn't fit with our ideas on how to visualize it. The way its set you can still see witch adventures make raw profit, those are > 1.
B28 = The value of loot for 1 loot spot.Quote:
The actual expected value of the adventure is in cell B28. This number is correct, provided that the numbers in cells B19:AG26 are accurate.
However, in cell G28 you multiply this number by the value of cell E28 (E28*B28).
Cell G28 is then used for further calculations. Either I'm completely overlooking something, or you're doubling and even tripling some of the adventure rewards.
E28 = The number of loot spots possible for this adventure.
G28 = the value of the loot for all loot spots combined.
Since we want the formula for all adventure to work in the same way we added a loot spot counter. Pending the number of player that can attend an adventure this number varies between 1,2 or 3.
The multiplier is need to get the total 'coin gained' per adventure.
You are correct.Quote:
Another thing I've noticed is that something the odds don't add up to 100%. For example U35:U38.
As I explained in the update post we used the German wiki to get the loot drop numbers. Those do not always ad up to 100%.
We tested the difference and saw the effect on the totals where neglect able. We also found that differentiation on the formulas made the risk on faults rise
To mitigate this risk we decided to keep all the dividers to 100.
Hope this answers all your concern.
If you have more questions or remark please feel free to keep posting them.
Cheers,
Nukar
PS for the future please edit your own post if your the last one in line. makes it easier for me ;)
I have gotten some questions about the sheet not working correctly. Sadly that is no something i can influance at this moment.
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Let me assure you, most people will not understand that <1 indicates a loss. Also, it's simply not relevant information. Just give me net profit/loss.Quote:
Raw coin profit (coins lost - coins gained) was an option. However it didn't fit with our ideas on how to visualize it. The way its set you can still see witch adventures make raw profit, those are > 1.
There is also a problem with the related column "Xp per coin lost". This is also not relevant information. The relevant version would be: "Coin won per XP gained" with the following calculation: (total coins gained - total coins spent) / total xp gained. In the case of adventures that cost coin you would be able to see how much you are paying for XP.
Okay... so you're saying that if you do an adventure with 3 people the total loot will be 3 times as big. This is pretty weird actually but if it does work like this you should definately include multiple columns in your main sheet reflecting this. Don't forget many people may solo 3-player adventures. I've read somewhere that the XP does get devided equally, so all information should fit neatly into 1 table, looking something like this:Quote:
B28 = The value of loot for 1 loot spot.
E28 = The number of loot spots possible for this adventure.
G28 = the value of the loot for all loot spots combined.
Since we want the formula for all adventure to work in the same way we added a loot spot counter. Pending the number of player that can attend an adventure this number varies between 1,2 or 3.
The multiplier is need to get the total 'coin gained' per adventure.
Adventure (Name, Troop cost, Loot, 1P profit, 2P profit, 3P profit, Total XP, Cost per XP)
I can see running a 3 player solo for the XP.
Why in the world would you not invite 2 more people in for an equal amount of rewards?
They only need 1 bandit kill to get a FULL reward.
Not doing so is throwing resources away.
People will pay gold to do this.
It is also great for lower level players in a guild to get a pile of resources they can sell.
Any level player can be invited. Need not be level 26.
One way a guild mate and I do it is to each start a 2 player and invite each other.
Then we kill one camp in each others adventure and solo the rest of it.
Double rewards for both of us :)
I agree with that SirRoy, but I think a lot of people don't know that the total reward is doubled/tripled if you invite other people (I for one didn't!). So just to make this clear I think it would be a good idea to put this into the sheet. I guess you might actually just put the profit columns for max players, but at least make a note somewhere that this profit is only true when the max amount of players are playing it.
Btw, I've spotted another little flaw:
You are using the price of bronze instead of bronze swords for your calculations. In cell buy_sell.Q5 and hidden_cost_calculations.D36, C8 and D8 should be replaced with C9 and D9.
@ Popovitsj
At this moment the sheets are ment to give information about your investments vs your rewards. If the formula is fully readable may differ per player, but think most will grasp the idea that it go's from best to worst (top to down). It still shows the same ratio.
But we will take your arguments into concidderation so who knows...
I do not think we will add guide like information. At this moment there is plenty of informtion here on these forums that can tell you lootsharing/ swapping is the way to go.
But im glad these sheet indirectly helped you towards that knowledge. :)
Cheers, it has been corrected!Quote:
Originally Posted by popovitsj
We agree that a table combining loot and xp is useful. However we will implement this formula instead since most adventures have negative net worth and it will contain easier to read numbers.
Xp / (coins lost - coins gained).
This will show how much xp is gained per lost coin.
Your point about 1p and 2p columns is simply wrong. There is nothing interesting to be read from that. If you are soloing a three player adventure, you will be either swapping the additional slots, giving you the slots back eventually from other players and ending up with the total profit anyway. If you are cooperating with other players who will take the slots from you, we have to assume they will also be taking the proportional amount of losses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by popovitsj
Yesterday we released a new version.
Most important change is that we included trends.
Now it will be easy for all to see what goods changed prices and if they increased or decreased.
Since this is a new feature and we are somewhat limited by the sheets options we are currently trying to find a balance in the trends.
For this to work and stay up-to-date we need to set a baseline of current prices on a regular basis. Our current challenge is to find a balance when to baseline. We are looking at 1x per day, 1x per week or every time we update prices. A new baseline will set all trends to 0 for that moment.
Any suggestions, with a reason why, will be welcome.
(note player time is involved so 1x per hour wont be a realistic option)
Furthermore we added an other guide and some bug fixes.
In the adventure tab we can see the consequences of price changes as we see more and more adventures (guides) get profitable. So keep checking those as well.
Edit:
Also included some usefull links in the adventures tabs
Maybe I should provide an easy to understand example.
Let's say I'm offered 2 investment opportunities with the following properties. I can only choose one. Which will you choose?
Investment 1
Initial investment: 100 euro.
Time until return: 1 day
Return: 200 euro.
Return per invested euro: 2
Investment 2
Initial investment: 400 euro.
Time until return: 1 day
Return: 600 euro.
Return per invested euro: 1.5
Please note that this is exactly the kind of decision we face in TSO, because you cannot play 2 adventures at the same time.
Yes this is how we work it out as wel.
you devide <profit>/<investment> = return
investment 1
200/100 = 2
investment 3
600/400 = 1.5
How is this different from what we do?
Take the top most adv in the list
losses (investment) = 2790
loot (return) = 6381
so our return per investment =
9381/2790 = 2.2870 = 2.29 rounded
So i dont see the problem you are trying to explain?
Yes you can play 2 adventures at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by popovitsj
I've just noticed that the cost of troops for dark priests far exceeds the loot value, y?
Also could the loot value of all adventures be put in please
With the current prices as base the value of the losses exceeds the possible profit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklite93
If you look at the adventures tab you will see the average loot value per adventure in column E "Loot coins". Here you will see average loodrop value based on current prices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklite93
If you want to see loot value per lootspot you can look at the 3rd column for the lootspot prices on the buy_sell tab.
Cheers
Nukar
If you mean market value of loot spots there isn't really an established value for sons, motherly, dark brotherhood, secluded experiments as these adventures are rarely played and even more rarely sold spots for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklite93
I am sorry to inform you that google has some server issues at this moment.
If you have trouble reaching the sheets please be patient and try again after a few minutes.
Sorry for the trouble, but I'm unable to influence it at this moment.
Cheers,
Nukar
The sheets have been updated to latest prices.