guild quests - lost for words

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Originally Posted by gibbletz

A player should not be expected to 'PAY' resources that his/her level is unable to produce/use.
The quests are not one off's they will be repeated many times.
The higher level player will find it much easier to complete this type of quest and for them it is even more profitable than for the lower level player due to the increased demand for that particular resource which they can produce penalising the lower level players with the same quest.

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This situation is not new.
In the old system, just looking at the quests for the old 56-100 member quests (which i might add are of course still being assigned, now to all size guilds) there are a few quests where players had to pay resources that they were as yet unable to make:

level 46-50 player
shooting down the moon - pay 40 gunpowder - powderhut is only available from lvl 47
the good generals - pay 40 cannons - cannon forge is only available from lvl 48
the war above the river - pay 60 gunpowder

I haven't looked at all the quests for all lvls, but I would guess there are other instances.

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Originally Posted by Mortallicus

I suggest you read my other posts about the Guild Quests and the rest of my statement that i made at the time of that comment. Maybe even most was not the correct adjective but i do think quite a few. A lot worse is said on this forum and rarely picked up upon which is interesting.

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I had, and have, read your others. It was the sharp turn of the quoted portion that came as something of a surprise. That is was followed by a requote of that single line and allowed to stand with no second thoughts or amendment from you made it stand out further.

I've also considered, and posted, the possibility that some of the discontent is related to the quantity of inactive members in a guild creating a sharp drop in rewards with the new system but unless I could back it up solidly and unquestionably I would certainly not say "most", or even "quite a few" really, nor let it stand if I slipped and then was quoted. I can't even come close to backing that up based on the posts I've seen so it's curious to me that's your reading.

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Originally Posted by Mortallicus

I am sorry if you find anything I say rude it was not and is not my intention. But I stand by largely what i said. If that is trolling or flaming (Iolanthe) then i am sure BB or a Mod will let me know. .

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Edit on seeing post #95, partially quoted above: I did say "comes much closer to flaming", if nitpickery on phrasing must occur, let it occur evenly. Standing by the "rude" in reference to that specific line, and its repost. Following posts may well not give that impression.

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Originally Posted by Kit_

This is not a ridiculous quest. It is not difficult to buy a stock of mahogany planks. The 50 planks required will cost approx. 110 coins and the 13 guild coins you get for the personal part of this quest, if exchanged for coins, will cover the cost of this. The guild coins from the main reward are then pure profit and the whole quest takes just a few seconds.

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You keep making these bold statements ggc are worth this that and the other, they are only worth what the current guild market offers. currently on my server their worth upto 8 gc, last guild market they were worth 4 gc, historically they were only worth about 1gc/2gc. You have no idea whether BB will keep the same ratio of ggc to gem ratio (or other commodities) for next community vote, given overall from people's supply in a lot of cases seems to increased I'm sceptical it will remain static. You cannot make statements that a quest is ok based on the current value off ggc which seems inflated because primarily wood cutters and Omni refills are in there, the next market vote could see ggc fall to 1 gc each, then all the quests might seem a little broken.

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Originally Posted by Iolanthe

I had, and have read your others. It was the sharp turn of the quoted portion that came as something of a surprise. That is was followed by a requote of that single line and allowed to stand with no second thoughts or amendment from you made it stand out further.

I've also considered, and posted, the possibility that some of the discontent is related to the quantity of inactive members in a guild creating a sharp drop in rewards with the new system but unless I could back it up solidly and unquestionably I would certainly not say "most", or even "quite a few" really, nor let it stand if I slipped and then was quoted. I can't even come close to backing that up based on the posts I've seen so it's curious to me that's your reading.

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When i said what I did i had actually read somewhere someone else say very similar and I thought it is a good point because under the old system many did not complete every quest usually because of too many adventures so a time problem. Those same people did do the quests that they could so did maybe 2 or 3 out of those that were ultimately completed by the whole guild. The ones they didnt do they still got guild coins as a reward. Quite justifiably as i think many encouraged it they felt entitled to ALL the coins they got. I certainly felt and stilll do that to do some of the quests that you can do easily is better than none. Those people i included in the word 'most' they would find it extremely hard now not getting coins for some of the quests. I know one or two first hand who have forgotten they didnt do all the quests before and now they are penalised. But yes it is fairer with the new system.

In my guild i am ensuring that all those that want to do at least some guild quests do get a reasonable number of coins and no one is being pressured or kicked for not doing them. I have not voted for the new rank idea for people to opt out of guild quests as I do not want any of my members to feel uncomfortable and segregated from others.

I am far from a mean person.

You then posted the quote twice :D

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Originally Posted by Bluesavanah

You keep making these bold statements ggc are worth this that and the other, they are only worth what the current guild market offers. currently on my server their worth upto 8 gc, last guild market they were worth 4 gc, historically they were only worth about 1gc/2gc. You have no idea whether BB will keep the same ratio of ggc to gem ratio (or other commodities) for next community vote, given overall from people's supply in a lot of cases seems to increased I'm sceptical it will remain static. You cannot make statements that a quest is ok based on the current value off ggc which seems inflated because primarily wood cutters and Omni refills are in there, the next market vote could see ggc fall to 1 gc each, then all the quests might seem a little broken.

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I do keep making bold statements, but they will be in reply to others equally bold statements of quests either being declared ridiculous, impossible, or too costly.
I am using the current market value, as a way to show that declaring a quest simply too expensive, without having backed this up in any way by looking at the costs involved, is a flawed argument.
I am making my own cost analysis of the new quests (based on the current market values) and will revise it in the future if needed. I am also looking at the times needed to do the production quests, minimum lvl of buildings required and buffs needed. Just from having looked over the new quests, I do not yet see any quest that is too expensive or impossible to do. I would much rather have actual numbers to back up my views on the guild quests, than people simply saying that they don't like them and bb must change them without any reasoning behind it.

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Originally Posted by Kit_

This situation is not new.
In the old system, just looking at the quests for the old 56-100 member quests (which i might add are of course still being assigned, now to all size guilds) there are a few quests where players had to pay resources that they were as yet unable to make:

level 46-50 player
shooting down the moon - pay 40 gunpowder - powderhut is only available from lvl 47
the good generals - pay 40 cannons - cannon forge is only available from lvl 48
the war above the river - pay 60 gunpowder

I haven't looked at all the quests for all lvls, but I would guess there are other instances.

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This is not new, that's true. It's been discussed before as a problem and is now likely to be a greater problem for smaller guilds with fewer available resources.

What you keep not mentioning Kit_, is that your guild has always been GQ focused. To the point of keeping spreadsheets on quest completion and removing players deemed to slack too much. Currently your guild is making a large point of advertising success at GQs as a guild perk. This is fine, and if it works well and everyone involved enjoys it that's great. That does not mean it's the only, nor even the best way to play for everyone and the challenges faced by small guilds getting many more "Do 2 Advs" quests than they ever did before are very different from a large guild's. Remember, the largest guilds now have 51 new quest sets rolling in, and those are either pretty much the same as what was seen before or easier.

The largest guilds should have a much easier time with the quests than they did before, this is almost cannot be the case with small, more casual guilds.

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Originally Posted by Bluesavanah

You keep making these bold statements ggc are worth this that and the other, they are only worth what the current guild market offers. currently on my server their worth upto 8 gc, last guild market they were worth 4 gc, historically they were only worth about 1gc/2gc. You have no idea whether BB will keep the same ratio of ggc to gem ratio (or other commodities) for next community vote, given overall from people's supply in a lot of cases seems to increased I'm sceptical it will remain static. You cannot make statements that a quest is ok based on the current value off ggc which seems inflated because primarily wood cutters and Omni refills are in there, the next market vote could see ggc fall to 1 gc each, then all the quests might seem a little broken.

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Of course that could happen but isn't it also possible that prices could increase in value, making the GQ more worthwhile to do? It seems to me that current prices are the best indicator that we have to go off of.

Assuming your scenario of falling prices however, I would think that would result in less people doing the 'expensive' guild quests....which would lead to less Guild Coins on the market, which should lead to higher guild coin values.

After months (years?) of the same 14 guild quests repeating themselves, (and often those 14 had similar tasks to perform, such as Black Knights) I for one am excited by the change in the guild quests. I accept that there may be some that I cannot do (or will not do) but overall the change seems very welcome to me.

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Originally Posted by Kit_

... I do not yet see any quest that is too expensive or impossible to do...

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I'm only quoting this particular line because I'm not responding to the ongoing discussion overall, just to 'impossible' quests. Impossible is a very hard word to use precisely - however - the quest to make a tome can be as close to impossible as you can get. If you don't happen to already have some manuscripts ready to use, you simply cannot make 5 manuscripts (and then the tome) in 1 day, even with small glue. And books cannot be traded, so the guild members or friends can't help. The only choice would be to get a hide glue (at 184? gems) or pray that you can buy one or get one at a reasonable cost - which is unlikely because of the cost of the gems to get it.

Therefore, I consider that an 'impossible' quest - or at the very least extremely impractical, and I think it should be changed or eliminated. That is the only one so far that I've not been able to do.

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Originally Posted by Mortallicus

When i said what I did i had actually read somewhere someone else say very similar and I thought it is a good point because under the old system many did not complete every quest usually because of too many adventures so a time problem. Those same people did do the quests that they could so did maybe 2 or 3 out of those that were ultimately completed by the whole guild. The ones they didnt do they still got guild coins as a reward. Quite justifiably as i think many encouraged it they felt entitled to ALL the coins they got. I certainly felt and stilll do that to do some of the quests that you can do easily is better than none. Those people i included in the word 'most' they would find it extremely hard now not getting coins for some of the quests. I know one or two first hand who have forgotten they didnt do all the quests before and now they are penalised. But yes it is fairer with the new system.

In my guild i am ensuring that all those that want to do at least some guild quests do get a reasonable number of coins and no one is being pressured or kicked for not doing them. I have not voted for the new rank idea for people to opt out of guild quests as I do not want any of my members to feel uncomfortable and segregated from others.

I am far from a mean person.

You then posted the quote twice :D

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First and foremost, I don't think you're mean. I do think there's been a fair bit of 'Y'all sit down and quit yer moaning.' floating around and this thread looked to be trending that way. As you mentioned above snark phases come and go here and for several reasons that tipped it for me.

I also, mostly, prefer the part of the new system that requires actually activity to gain the rewards, which cuts out both massive collections of inactives retained only for their guild coins purposes, and gives a nudge to players who collected without contributing. I do miss being able to carry friends who were unavailable for whatever reason, and it was nice when they did it for me, but on the whole the new way makes more sense to me.

I do not prefer the part that asks 10 people to sort out a bunch of VLTs, or many sets of 'Do 2 Advs', or to pay whatever costly resource when together they have less time and less *stuff* than the guilds those quests were originally designed for. Some of the kinks may shake out over time but as mentioned above some of them are in the core, and really could benefit from close examination.

So, it seems wise to be certain the complaints don't get mashed all together in a bucket of 'The complainers are just whinging 'cause they miss their free ride and it's not that difficult anyway.' which again, seemed the direction things were quickly heading. In taking this thread almost completely off track, that may be sorted now. :D

Which quote where?

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Originally Posted by Iolanthe

This is not new, that's true. It's been discussed before as a problem and is now likely to be a greater problem for smaller guilds with fewer available resources.

What you keep not mentioning Kit_, is that your guild has always been GQ focused. Too the point of keeping spreadsheets on quest completion and removing players deemed to slack too much. Currently your guild is making a large point of advertising success at GQs as a guild perk. This is fine, and if it works well and everyone involved enjoys it that's great. That does not mean it's the only, nor even the best way to play for everyone and the challenges faced by small guilds getting many more "Do 2 Advs" quests than they ever did before are very different from a large guild's. Remember, the largest guilds now have 57 new quest sets rolling in, and those are either pretty much the same as what was seen before or easier.

The largest guilds should have a much easier time with the quests than they did before, this is almost cannot be the case with small, more casual guilds.

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I am indeed in a large guild that has always worked hard at doing guild quests daily. Do we like spreadsheets, well yes, some of us are just nerdy like that :D
Do we kick slackers? Actually very rarely, we do kick inactive players, but these are players who have simply stopped playing entirely. There is simply no point in keeping players that are no longer in the game. We do however have plenty who have busy work lives or ill health, who join in the guild when they are around and are given some leeway when they are unable. Having looked at the guild coin reward and completion rates required, we can easily afford to keep these players in the guild and still make far more guild coins than we did before and we are on some days doing extremely well. It all averages out.

With regard to big vs small guilds, I used to be in a small guild before. I do not see why a small guild member would have more difficulty with the quests. The ability to do a quest would surely be based on your level and your island economy. Neither of these things is affected by guild size. The quests are assigned by your player lvl also. Do 2 adv's is frequently held up as being terribly hard. There are various options for doing this quest and can be done by any one - lootspots, lost skull, or scenarios being the easiest.
I would like to know of a specific quest or type of quest that puts a small guild at a disadvantage over a large guild and why that is so.
Also large guilds may now have the 57 'easier' guild quests, but large guilds also have large numbers of members who are receiving the new lvl51+ quests, and apparently these are harder ;)