Science is bit... expensive

As some have noticed, the price of manuscripts go up as you make them. There's a website showing how fast the prices actually increase: (hopes the forums allow a link outside) http://www.settlersonlinewiki.eu/gui...tem-geologist/

Now if you take a look at that, primary thing to realise is that very soon tomes start taking 2 manuscripts, then 3, 4 and so on. And codex taking 2 tomes, then 3. This on top of the fact that manuscripts increase in cost too, exponentially. But math is tricky, so here are some rough numbers. For simplicity's sake, I counted a set of skills with 10 manuscripts, 10 tomes and 10 codex. That's only 30/31, so actual cost for leveling one geologist (or later explorer etc. if nothing changes) is slightly more. Or less, if you pick lower skills on purpose to save a bit. But back to the point. If those numbers are in fact correct, already your 5th special character to skill up would cost you no less than:
- 72000 gold coins
- 1.8 million simple paper
- 1.4 million nibs

Ok, that's expensive but maybe you can handle it. 6th set of skillups costs about 10 times more. 7th would cost so much more you don't even want to know. Compound interest truly is the greatest force in the universe. I know some people who were planning on skilling up all their 10-15 geologists. Some have started already, spreading books among all of them. I feel sorry for them already.

So, what I'm hoping to hear is one of the following:
1) the website is wrong, the prices don't climb up that fast and tomes and codexes do not use more than 1 book of previous level, ever
2) when next set of skills are introduced, prices are reset back to original (allowing us another few characters to skill up with reasonable prices)
3) when next set of skills are introduced (the explorer for example), different three books will be used for skilling up that character type. And those three new books will start their prices from low like current ones. This would allow continuing geologists at high price, or doing explorers cheap. It would also prevent stockpiling current books in order to immediately level up an explorer to high level.
4) the website can be interpreted so that price increase for manuscripts stops after 91st book ... if that's the case, there's hope

As you might guess, my favorite would be option 3 there.

One might ask why am I worried about some issue that will not be any problem until months later. Well, it actually is a problem already. If I spend books on 3-4 geologists today, by the time the explorers come available, I might not be able to afford making books for them at all. Or the generals the latest. So what I do now may totally ruin my game later.

I noticed it today. My 11th manuscript is more expensive than 10 previous. Expensive by 10 %. Although the base price is even expensive by itself. I hope they will at least change it to fixed amounts of resources, else it's a dead end.

It's worse than you think, I have not as yet seen anyone mention how much exotic wood and titanium ore will be needed to make codex's. I calculate it will require 5400 exo wood and 3600 ore per codex to skill up my last NPC. So basically If you have enough NPC's you will reach a point where you are going to have problems supplying the res to make bookends and advanced paper.

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Originally Posted by Dorotheus

It's worse than you think, I have not as yet seen anyone mention how much exotic wood and titanium ore will be needed to make codex's. I calculate it will require 5400 exo wood and 3600 ore per codex to skill up my last NPC. So basically If you have enough NPC's you will reach a point where you are going to have problems supplying the res to make bookends and advanced paper.

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I honestly wouldn't worry about the exo wood and titanium ore. By the time codex price gets that high, you're already paying billion trillion paper for manuscripts. In fact, as you'll be spending more and more time on making those extra manuscripts, your daily average consumption for advanced paper and fittings will actually go down as prices climb, not up.

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Originally Posted by Borotaur

As some have noticed, the price of manuscripts go up as you make them. There's a website showing how fast the prices actually increase: (hopes the forums allow a link outside) http://www.settlersonlinewiki.eu/gui...tem-geologist/

Now if you take a look at that, primary thing to realise is that very soon tomes start taking 2 manuscripts, then 3, 4 and so on. And codex taking 2 tomes, then 3. This on top of the fact that manuscripts increase in cost too, exponentially. But math is tricky, so here are some rough numbers. For simplicity's sake, I counted a set of skills with 10 manuscripts, 10 tomes and 10 codex. That's only 30/31, so actual cost for leveling one geologist (or later explorer etc. if nothing changes) is slightly more. Or less, if you pick lower skills on purpose to save a bit. But back to the point. If those numbers are in fact correct, already your 5th special character to skill up would cost you no less than:
- 72000 gold coins
- 1.8 million simple paper
- 1.4 million nibs

Ok, that's expensive but maybe you can handle it. 6th set of skillups costs about 10 times more. 7th would cost so much more you don't even want to know. Compound interest truly is the greatest force in the universe. I know some people who were planning on skilling up all their 10-15 geologists. Some have started already, spreading books among all of them. I feel sorry for them already.

So, what I'm hoping to hear is one of the following:
1) the website is wrong, the prices don't climb up that fast and tomes and codexes do not use more than 1 book of previous level, ever
2) when next set of skills are introduced, prices are reset back to original (allowing us another few characters to skill up with reasonable prices)
3) when next set of skills are introduced (the explorer for example), different three books will be used for skilling up that character type. And those three new books will start their prices from low like current ones. This would allow continuing geologists at high price, or doing explorers cheap. It would also prevent stockpiling current books in order to immediately level up an explorer to high level.

As you might guess, my favorite would be option 3 there.

One might ask why am I worried about some issue that will not be any problem until months later. Well, it actually is a problem already. If I spend books on 3-4 geologists today, by the time the explorers come available, I might not be able to afford making books for them at all. Or the generals the latest. So what I do now may totally ruin my game later.

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I would ask you to show all your maths, but that might take awhile. Just explain how you got to 72k coins and I think we can stop wasting people's time :)

Interesting....
The real question for me is....
What happens when your explorers, general, and your other buildings are included in the science system??!
Will there be another science system, where the prices start all over, or will we continue on the, at that time, high prices??
If we continue with the prices, as they are after the upgrades of the geologists, then the first codex for the first explorer will be extremely gigantic from the first codex??!
I wonder what BB is thinking about this, and whether there is room for optimization and adjustment of the system all in all??? :)
Thanks for an interesting thread.
I'll be watching this! :D

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Originally Posted by Drakee

I would ask you to show all your maths, but that might take awhile. Just explain how you got to 72k coins and I think we can stop wasting people's time :)

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Don't be so harsh.. :) I think, based on the talk in the help chat, that Borotaur acturaly is right.. :)
I think this discussion is realy important, and I think that to many explanations would only confuse many players and many would chose not to participate in this discussion, so I think its ok that he has not included the detailed description of all the calculations. ;)

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Originally Posted by Drakee

I would ask you to show all your maths, but that might take awhile. Just explain how you got to 72k coins and I think we can stop wasting people's time :)

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Ok, simplified numbers, assuming 10+10+10 skills to reach 30/31. If you're L50, make one more codex. But these numbers give you a pretty good ballpark figure.

Geo 1:
30x manuscript, 20x tome, 10x codex
Total cost: 330 gc, 8.3k simple paper, 6.6k nibs, ...

Geo2: each tome now requires 2 manuscripts
50x manuscript, 20x tome, 10x codex
Total cost: 810 gc, 20k simple paper, 16k nibs, ...

Geo3: each tome now requires 3 manuscripts
70x manuscript, 20x tome, 10x codex
Total cost: 2k gc, 50k simple paper, 40k nibs, ...

Geo4: each codex now requires 2 tomes, each tome now requires 4 manuscripts (first 20), then 5 manuscripts (last 10)
140x manuscript, 30x tome, 10x codex
Total cost: 12k gc, 290k simple paper, 230k nibs, ...

Geo5: each tome now requires 5 manuscripts (first 10), then 6 manuscripts (last 20)
180x manuscript, 30x tome, 10x codex
Total cost: 72k gc, 1.8M simple paper, 1.4M nibs, ...

Geo6: each tome now requires 7 manuscripts (first 20), then 8 manuscripts (last 10)
230x manuscript, 30x tome, 10x codex
Total cost: ... far too much ...

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Originally Posted by Borotaur

Geo 1:
30x manuscript, 20x tome, 10x codex
Total cost: 330 gc, 8.3k simple paper, 6.6k nibs, ...

Geo2: each tome now requires 2 manuscripts
50x manuscript, 20x tome, 10x codex
Total cost: 810 gc, 20k simple paper, 16k nibs, ...

Geo3: each tome now requires 3 manuscripts
70x manuscript, 20x tome, 10x codex
Total cost: 2k gc, 50k simple paper, 40k nibs, ...

Geo4: each codex now requires 2 tomes, each tome now requires 4 manuscripts (first 20), then 5 manuscripts (last 10)
140x manuscript, 30x tome, 10x codex
Total cost: 12k gc, 290k simple paper, 230k nibs, ...

Geo5: each tome now requires 5 manuscripts (first 10), then 6 manuscripts (last 20)
180x manuscript, 30x tome, 10x codex
Total cost: 72k gc, 1.8M simple paper, 1.4M nibs, ...

Geo6: each tome now requires 7 manuscripts (first 20), then 8 manuscripts (last 10)
230x manuscript, 30x tome, 10x codex
Total cost: ... far too much ...

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LOL..... Thanx for the depressing calculations!!! xD

Why on earth should something that does not do any different each time it is used (any book) increase in production costs. Typical BB, the more i read about you the more I want to quit.

The way I read the charts on the linked page, and the various other pages with the same sort of chart, it doesn't read to me like it works in any way to reach that sort of cost.

The way the chart reads to me is that Manuscripts increase in cost for every 10 made up until 91, and then never increase in price again.
Tomes increase every 20 up to the 81st made, and then never again.
Codex's increase every 30 up until the 61st made, and then never again.
Otherwise why is the manuscript section shown with 10 increments, the tome section shown with 5, and the codex section only 3.

Maybe that's the cap someone discovered.
Maybe it keeps going, but noone has been able to make enough to get that far to know for certain.

If it does cap out at the points in the chart, the costs will still be considerable, but nowhere near those calculations.
If it doesn't cap out, then we've certainly got a problem.

Edit: Actually, our German friends tested and confirmed those as caps -> http://forum.diesiedleronline.de/thr...l=1#post858621

Edit 2: This means that your 7th specialist (and all specialists from then on, forever), not counting the level 50 skill, need 10 codex, 40 tome and 210 manuscript
210 manuscript are 5040 gold, 98700 nibs, 123900 simple paper
40 tomes need 200 scripts (from the 210 above), 16600 printing types, 24200 intermediate paper
10 codex needs 30 tomes (from the 40 above), 4000 fittings, 5600 advanced paper

I'm a little tired, someone correct that maths if it seems wrong.

Yeah, This will be a problem for some in a few months. so far ive made 33 manu,s 10 tomes, 3 codex.

It now costs 365 simple paper, 295 nibs, 15 coins to make each manuscript!

I did do some calculations but after making my 40th manu the cost jumped from 13 coins to 15 coins.
Put it this way, if u got a lot of geos, scouts to upgrade youll need a lot of glue and plenty of book making stock :)

I found this by chance, after I noticed my Manuscrpit cost 13GC yesterday and today, 15 and at first I thought I was misreading but now I can see it, I am seriously considering demolishing all the Science buildings and retrieving building licenses!
I am all for extra gameplay, but not at an differential and exponential rate.
I believe the cost should remain the same throughout, so we know what we're paying.
If Tesco put up their beans for every tin I buy, I would soon shop elsewhere!

72k might seem like a lot. But please do the math on how long it actually take to complete 5 geologists. With and without glue....

I'm at a point now where each tome costs 2 manuscripts, so that definitely is implemented. Hopefully we'll see a rebalance of the system as it is expanded to include other specialists.

It is not exponential.
It is not 72k.
It will cap out at 5040 gold (plus the other mats), assuming you want 10/10/10.

Im all for option 3, however only if the people that have saved up for it gets to change there books free of charge the first time around, just for the fact that if you are saving up then its because you don´t need severel geo´s at lvl 31 or at what ever lvl you have stopped them at. for me I have only givin my only jolly 8 books and thats it. I don´t see the need for giving him any more for my playstyle, so why should i be punished for saving books for the next type of skill tree?

I can only assume the current system is designed the way it is so as be a balancing system to prevent high level gem buyers from being too powerful when PvP is implemented. If science for generals is the last of the science chains to be implemented then all players will have used books in the first 3 science chains making upgrades for generals equally expensive for all.

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Originally Posted by Dorotheus

I can only assume the current system is designed the way it is so as be a balancing system to prevent high level gem buyers from being too powerful when PvP is implemented. If science for generals is the last of the science chains to be implemented then all players will have used books in the first 3 science chains making upgrades for generals equally expensive for all.

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Unless one hasn't spent a single manuscript/tome/codex and is stockpiling them like me :) Why waste valuble (and now expensive as it appears) resources on a blimming geo? Sounds silly to me :)

Has it definitely been confirmed that we will be able to skill gens and scouts in the future ?

I'm finding the whoole science system a bit counter productive, this game is tediously slow at best, by design, but now i have mines that run out faster than pre-science system meaning i have more tedious building to do everyday,

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Originally Posted by BAAAHHHHHJJJAAA

Has it definitely been confirmed that we will be able to skill gens and scouts in the future ?

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The Science System will consist of 4 skill trees. 3 of them correspond to each type of specialists (explorers, geologists, generals). The fourth tree will be related to your home island.

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Taken from here

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Originally Posted by veganbot

I'm finding the whoole science system a bit counter productive, this game is tediously slow at best, by design, but now i have mines that run out faster than pre-science system meaning i have more tedious building to do everyday,

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Then don't upgrade them as much... Now copper can be mined faster, I don't need to upgrade the mines (saving me tools) and can still get the same production.

I have upgraded only one geologist with 30 books, for 31 I need to be level 50 and that will not be so soon. I have 5 fast and 3 slow geos. My plan will be next: Only one geologist will be complete upgraded, but the others will be only up to higher deposit of marble, nothing more. Ok, maybe in the future I will add more books, but that depends of my mood :)

It seems like there is a cap:

http://forum.thesettlersonline.com/t...929#post224929

Based on the page an extra geologist maxed with 31 books- 15M-7T-9C will cost:

185M, 33T, 9C

4,440coins
109,150 paper - 3,300c
86,950 nibs - 10,440c
21,270 Int Pap - 1,700c
14,110 PT - 3,100
5040AP - 7,500
3600BF - 6,500

So overall any maxed geologist will cost roughly 40,000coins + time to make all that... About 60 days worth buffed or 120 days unbuffed at lvl 5 making books 24/7 which is impossible because there is no building queue...

I think science system should be limited/calculated per geologist ...
When you upgrade one building - it doesn't increase cost to upgrade another building(s) of the same type, right ?
So why upgrading one geologist - affects price to upgrade another geologist ? Do they cooperate ? No - each geologist is doing his job alone.

I have one Geologist skilled up with 21/31 books and another with 24/31 books and have noticed that it now takes 2 Manuscripts to produce 1 Tombe

I dont even have an Advanced Papermill yet and don't think i will bother making one as the costs of producing a Codex are too prohibitive

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Originally Posted by WippleWorm

I have one Geologist skilled up with 21/31 books and another with 24/31 books and have noticed that it now takes 2 Manuscripts to produce 1 Tombe

I dont even have an Advanced Papermill yet and don't think i will bother making one as the costs of producing a Codex are too prohibitive

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As far as I am aware the correct values are shown here to produce books

Is this effectively just a tax then?

Books etc wouldn't normally cost anything more to make as you possess more, the opposite in fact, so it seems the science system is a way to charge the more advanced players!

my opinion about this upgrades, have only one of all types maximum upgraded(geologist, explorer and later general) at least that type of work I have done :)

I think there is something wrong here. If a book ( manuscript, tome, codex ) needs more materials to be build it should need more time as well. I really hope that BB will look at this mistake and make it take longer time to produce proportional to the costs of the book.

I am not sarcastic, (Said in a very sarcastic way).