Librarian, Archivist and Collector do not count existing books

The achievements requiring the production of 100 Manuscripts, 50 Tomes and 20 Codexes do not factor in those which were already produced.

Since the production cost of these items increases as more are being produced, I know that it is possible for these items to factor in past production.

The way these achievements are currently set up is highly unfair for those who are already at "limit", i.e. requiring 5 Tomes per Codex and 5 Manuscripts per Tome.

Expected behaviour: Past production is factored in with this achievement.

This is just lazy design. You obviously track the number of books that have been produced. Then there's no excuse not to use that in the achievements. Same with time played. That is just lazy design.

The problem with retroactive factoring is that not all books were produced. Some of them we got as a reward, for instance in Easter event. Some of them are lost if the player cleared the science tree for 50% return. BUT, the server still has the information on how many of each book is produced. It must have this info to properly raise the production cost. Retroactive script should use this info. It's achievable.

According to what my achievement list says, I need to produce 50 more Tomes and 20 more Codex.

Given the current rate, I'd take roughly 300 days to complete this achievement.
Would have been hell of a lot quicker if I hadn't used bookmaker glue on a lv5 maker in the past ...

This issue is currently inserted in our database. Thank you!

there is a small bug...it does not count the books produced before introduction of achievements....so atm i will not get these achievements because i cannot make enough books anymore! (because i do not need them!)



[Post was merged in]

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Originally Posted by bArAbAts

there is a small bug...it does not count the books produced before introduction of achievements....so atm i will not get these achievements because i cannot make enough books anymore! (because i do not need them!)

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You're lucky, I need 10 Manuscripts for 1 Codex and 20 Codex for the quest.
No, it doesn't count the 70+ Codexes I have already invested, but I guess "It's fair" in comparison to those who need 1 Manuscript per Codex ... because what's the difference between spending 2 weeks and spending 4 months for one and the same achievement?

I bet the Bluebyte developers feel the same way when looking at their coworkers' salaries: "It's totally fair that I get in 4 months what he gets in 2 weeks, nothing to see here ..."

So BLuebyte??? when is his getting fixed?

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Originally Posted by BB_Ravel

This issue is currently inserted in our database. Thank you!

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Deal with it like the rest of your bugs! Stop wasting our time with broken game, make it as you intended!

Update: The behaviour is intentional.

Only books created after the maintenance on the 22nd of May will be counted towards this type of achievements.

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Originally Posted by BB_Ravel

Update: The behaviour is intentional.

Only books created after the maintenance on the 22nd of May will be counted towards this type of achievements.

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Intentionally unbalanced and counter-intuitive... Got it! *thumbs-up* :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by BB_Ravel

Update: The behaviour is intentional.

Only books created after the maintenance on the 22nd of May will be counted towards this type of achievements.

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Well that is just terrible game design then. It punishes older players an unreasonable amount.

So with a lvl 5 bookbinder it takes at least 50 days to make the 100 scrolls, then an additional 162 days for the tomes and an additional 260 days for the codexes. So that's well over a year worth of books if you manage to produce the next book the second the first one is finished. All this for something I have already done. I have already produced all the books needed and more but the stupid design that makes books so expensive makes this achievement a real pain for older players.

Why are you punishing us?

BTW, the double increase in cost for the science system is a very bad design as well. It seems like no one bothered to do the actual maths on it since you can't even remotely get enough books into the science system even if the time frame is years. It will quite literally take longer than the game has already been out to just get all the books needed to max out the free explorers and geologists. By now, most of us has several extra explorers and geologists from events and gems. Someone failed the maths here. Paying five of the previous book to make the next is way too much and it takes too long time.

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Originally Posted by BB_Ravel

Update: The behaviour is intentional.

Only books created after the maintenance on the 22nd of May will be counted towards this type of achievements.

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Can we file an appeal against such a decision ?

really bad, i've made way more than 200 manuscripts and bout 100 codex, I no longer need to make these things yet i have to or the quest won't complete.

@BB, So players who invested in this game longer....are being punished?! why would you do that?! So we played trough all kinds off different bugs...and uncomplete features....and this is how BB pays us back!??!?!?!

Strange ways to thank the players!! (your testers!)

I don't for one second believe it's "intentional" in the way most people would understand the word.

What I believe is that this is yet another example of how the developers find it impossible to admit they made a mistake or can't resolve a particular bug.

EDIT:

Proven by the use of the word "fix" in this, more recent update:

http://forum.thesettlersonline.com/t...l=1#post263425

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Originally Posted by BB_Ravel

It is planned to implement a fix that will count books added previously.

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Update: The behaviour is intentional. = "We dont know how to fix it, but also we dont want you to become aware of our limitations, so let's assume is intentional"

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Originally Posted by Gerontius

Proven by the use of the word "fix" in this, more recent update:

http://forum.thesettlersonline.com/t...l=1#post263425

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Let's not confuse the achievements that are discussed in this thread with the achievement discussed in another thread.

This thread: Librarian,Archivist and Collector achievements
This thread is about the achievements that count the amount of books you created and, as BB_Ravel stated in this thread, only the books created since the achievement counter was activated (May 22nd I believe) are counted.

Other thread: "Surplus!" achievement
The thread Gerontius mentioned is discussing the "Surplus!" achievement which requires you to 'Fully learn all "Surplus" geologist skills'. According to this announcement, 'the Erudite' (which also requires you to learn a specific skill) these type of achievements were still waiting for a 'Decision about next steps'. BB_Ravels comment in the other thread tells you that the "Surplus!' achievement isn't working as intended and a fix will be implemented.

this is so unfair I cant believe its intentional.
players who need 5 manuscripts to make 1 tome, and 3 tomes to make 1 codex (oldest players) are being punished with this big and unbalanced difficulty you created

Congratulations for calling "achievements" a complete farce.

"We intend to offend our most active players, especially those who invest (probably real money as well) heavily into the game"

Punishing players for having been in the game and being more active, way to go!

Why don't you just add some achievements that punish people for purchasing gems, then you can close the game. :D

Do the developers who consider this behaviour "intentional" even REALIZE that this "achievement" is about 10x as much effort for a dedicated long-term player than for a new player?

Well seeing as you cant get 100% of achievements until at least 12 months after the initial achievements go-live date I wonder how big a problem this really is.
Has anyone done the maths to show how long it will take a L50 player who has already invested heavily in science books and is at the max of production levels to achieve this achievement? If its less than 12 months I don't see the problem, if its longer then fair does and BB should maybe do something.


Personally I am happy that it will take most people 'forever' especially if they don't keep the science buildings busy ;-)

Let's calculate for a max player.

20 Codex (x16hr) require 100 Tome (x14hr) require 500 Manuscript (x12hr), so it's:
320+1400+6000 = 7720 hours of production on a lv5 bookbinder.
Yeah, it's less than 12 months. It's only 321 days, assuming you don't miss a single minute of production! [how likely is that for a working, sleeping person with Real Life? ]

However, the same achievement, for a new player who has just started today, would cost:
9 days for upgrading the Bookbinder to level 5 + 50 days for Scripts + 24 days for Tomes + 13 days for Codex = 96 days.

So, 312 vs. 96 days - not even going to mention the fact that it takes a whole truckload of additional resources for the same ends.

I think Bluebyte is trying to tell longterm players "You are getting old and slow, time to retire [and let your island die] - make room for young and agile players" :D

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Originally Posted by Sharpielein

20 Codex (x16hr) require 100 Tome (x14hr) require 500 Manuscript (x12hr)

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Let's be a bit more accurate in the numbers used:
1) a codex on max cost, requires 3 tomes, not 5
2) level 5 bookbinder tome creation time is 14 hours and 24 minutes, not 14 hours
3) level 5 bookbinder codex creation time is 16 hours 48 minutes, not 16 hours

Resulting in 20 codex, 60 tome, 300 manuscript for an existing player, taking 201 days and 8 hours
For a new player this results in 20 codex, 50 tome and 100 manuscript, taking 94 days after upgrading to a level 5 bookbinder (8 days, 1 hour and 2.5 minutes), so 102 days 1 hour and 2.5 minutes

As a warning to new players reading this thread, getting this achievement is not the only thing you should consider.
Getting your bookbinder up to level 5 might be worth it, but only if you can get enough resources to keep the bookbinder running day and night.
Actually investing the books in your geologist or explorer as soon as you can will benefit you much more then obtaining these achievements.
This does mean that getting this achievement will take a lot longer, since it depends on in what order you invest and create the books.

For those interested in that math:

Spoiler

A new player has to follow his level and will probably first invest multiple manuscripts before you are even able to use tomes.
Let's say you have 2 geologists and 3 explorers, (meaning you can invest a max of 55 manuscripts, 50 tomes and 30 codexes).
You'll probably reach the required level to create tomes before you created those 55 manuscripts, but since manuscripts don't require a lower tier book, this doesn't really matter.
So let's just assume you invested all possible manuscripts and are able to invest all 50 tomes in your specialists
The first 20 tomes require an additional 20 manuscripts
The second batch of 20 tomes require an additional 40 manuscripts
The last 10 tomes require an additional 30 manuscripts.
Making the total of 50 tomes and 55+90=145 manuscripts, this will take quite a while and you'll probably get access to the codex before that and might want to invest some of them, before investing all tomes.

• Let's assume you'll invest the tomes first and then starts making the codexes
  this means you can invest all 30 codexes now
  The first 10 require 10 tomes and thus 30 manuscripts
  Next 10 require 10 tomes and 40 manuscripts
  (at this point you have all 3 achievements and created 20 codexes, 70 tomes and 215 manuscripts.
  Which took 163 days and 12 hours on a level 5 bookbinder, or 272 days and 12 hours on a level 3 bookbinder)
  The remaining 10 require 10 tomes and 40 manuscripts
  Making the total 30 codexes, 50+30=80 tomes and 55+90+140=285 manuscripts
  
• Let's assume you want your geo's fully specced first before creating additional tomes
  this means you start creating 12 codexes after creating 20 tomes then finish up with the remaining 30 tomes and 18 codexes
  The first 20 tomes require an additional 20 manuscripts
  Then 12 codexes which require 12 tomes and thus (2*12=)24 manuscripts
  Making the total 12 codexes, 20+12=32 tomes and 55+20+24=99 manuscripts
  The next 8 tomes require 8*2=16 manuscripts
  Then 10 tomes requiring 10*3=30 manuscripts
  Making the total 12 codexes, 20+12+18=50 tomes and 55+20+24+46=145 manuscripts
  The next 8 codexes require 8 tomes and 8*3=24 manuscripts
  (at this point you have all 3 achievements and created 20 codexes, 58 tomes and 169 manuscripts.
  Which took 132 days and about 15 hours on a level 5 bookbinder, or 221 days on a level 3 bookbinder)
  The next 2 codexes require 2 tomes and 8*2=24 manuscripts
  The last 8 codexes require 8 tomes and 8*4=32 manuscripts
  Making the total 30 codexes, 20+12+18+18=68 tomes and 55+20+24+46+62=207 manuscripts

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Originally Posted by Sharpielein

20 Codex (x16hr) require 100 Tome (x14hr) require 500 Manuscript (x12hr)

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How many codices have you made so far?

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Originally Posted by Fexno

[color=indigo]Let's be a bit more accurate in the numbers used:
1) a codex on max cost, requires 3 tomes, not 5

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Are you sure?
I think it's just about none has yet confirmed (or been able to confirm) it's 5..

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Originally Posted by SmurfAsH

Are you sure?
I think it's just about none has yet confirmed (or been able to confirm) it's 5..

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Yes, unless tsotesting is different on this point then our servers.
Or if they changed something since I posted this

Not really keen on buying all those books on test again ;)

Realistically a newer player will lose more than 170 days to complete this achievement (no reward as usual just points) as they will not have the resources for level 5 upgrades and will not use what they get on the bookbinder.
No normal player will be producing more than 1 of the books per day, or be using bookbinder glue. I'm also willing to bet there will be down time as well, as they will not have resources to make books sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Fexno

Not really keen on buying all those books on test again ;)

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Fortunately I have a minion for that nowadays, and he reported that even after 115 codexes the cost per codex is still 3 tomes

http://s25.postimg.org/4p2f3r9dr/screenshot_333.png
(Starting value on tsotesting for tomes is 50,000)

http://s25.postimg.org/vydsi9agv/screenshot_332.png

My wrist is sore, but my inquisitiveness has been sated for the mean time :confused:

Always happy to help where I can.

So whilst people can say that the way things are working right now is grossly unfair it would also appear that at a simplistic level a good steer would be that it would take both new players and high level long standing players roughly a year to achieve the science achievements.


For high level players they are going to have to invest in making many more manuscripts and tomes to make the required codex which will take time but at least their island should support this approach.
For low level players they will have to make significantly less manuscripts and tomes to make the same number of codex but their island and economy will not allow them to focus exclusively on this science tree production and as such they will have to invest heavily in other areas first if they are going to be able to achieve the same goals as a high level player.


This all suggests an element of fairness to me and possibly even that BB has given significant thought to ensuring that newer players aren't so disadvantaged so that they don't bother staying in the game whilst also trying to ensure older established high level players still have to work for the achievements rather than just click accept on day 1 of them going live which could have happened.


Well done BB for having the guts to keep with this approach and not just bend to the objections of a minority of players :)

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Originally Posted by SmurfAsH

How many codices have you made so far?

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I have no idea, but not that many, because both 14h24 and 16h48 for me means "A full day", because I typically have long working days and need some sleep, so I only make them on weekends.
But I have made well over 300 Manuscripts. Actually, just because of that thing I'll personally will take like 3-4 years to complete that achievement :D