Changes (buffs) to Nusala

Hi BB!
There has been this talk that Nusala is kind of underwhelming, compared to Vargus or Anslem. When you look at how often the latter two champs are used in Ali-adventures, Nusala rarely makes it to the list. In my opinion she has made little stage time. If you look at her stats, she rarely offers much to the fights.

When you've unlocked ::K::cannoneers at level 48, you would rarely use any kind of ::B::bowman over cannoneers. The latter can hide behind a wall of recruits or militia, but bowmen cannot. In a situation of dogs, shadowsneakers, foxes or the bloody Spawn of Hell ::skull::, you can only use more bowmen to tank for bowmen, thus further diminishing the damage you can deal with an already-small troop capacity. If you used Vargus, you can make recs tank for the bowmen. However, if you want maximal damage from the assigned troops, you would still prefer to use cannoneers. One cannoneer deals 3 bowmen's, 2 longbowmen's or 4/3rds crossbowmen's damage. This leaves very few cases where bowmen are used: Either you're finishing a camp holding slow-attack bandits, thus attacking preferrably with crossbowmen, or you're loading Nusala full of bowmen or longbowmen and doing a ::bomb:: suicide bombing run. This also limits her identity as a "glorified MMA" as my friend has said.

On Ali-adventures her own first-strike damage is less effective against the higher HP-bars of the desert bandits. It is a general consensus that the Major Generals are the go-to choice for these adventures, because of their high troop capacity. However, Anslem and Vargus have their own traits (namely the 0%-accuracy and intercept abilities) that allow different ways of clearing those maps. Nusala pretty much does not. Mounted Marksmen already have AoE damage and Armoured Marksmen have assassination built in. Furthermore, they still suffer from the same problems that bowmen do: They can get assassinated during a first-strike. ::deer::

I have come up with a few ideas that can even the play field. I hope that there is some way to make Nusala equally as viable in general as the other two, - or as often.
- Increase her bowmen's HP by a percentage or a fixed rate. This would make bowmen their own shields. Letting them tank damage means not as many will get assassinated in one round and they can deal more damage for the same amount of troops. This could mean that you could replace all the recs with bowmen and potentially have a damage output that is somewhat smaller than cannoneers', but with assassination applied.
- Make her bowmen deal their damage (or some percent of it) when they get killed. This guarantees that none of her troops will die without doing anything useful and utilizes her already-limited carrying capacity to the max.
- Extend her existing trait of "give bowmen and marksmen assassination and AoE" to Mounted Marksmen as well, and thus to all archers currently in game. You already have implemented a 165-carrying capacity limitation, why further limit this trait to normal-strike archers?
- Straight-up give her assigned archers more damage. Make her into the Artemis-incarnate and master of archers in the game.
- Give all her loaded bowmen first-strike. This ensures their attack will go through and possibly will win the fight.

Taking into account that bowmen and marksmen ::coins:: cost slightly more than recs and militia or swordsmen and mounted swordsmen, I think it's a fair tradeoff: More cost for more damage. What's more, changing Nusala's skills potentially allows map clearing with bowmen instead of the usual ::guild:: "meatshield" units, thus a different way to play the game, just like Anslem and Vargus already are doing, albeit much more effectively and often. ::friendship::

edit:
- It has been said that she currently nukes the easier addies. I agree with that. She completely destroys camps that have troops with 40 or fewer HP. If you load cav into those attacks, you use negligible amounts of tank units on one camp.
If it is necessary to not make her completely a monster on these adventures, I think it would be an option to cut down on her own damage, in exchange for some of the traits mentioned above. A champion shouldn't be completely defined by the damage they themselves dish out, but instead how they offer skillsets that change the playing field i.e the way troops interact with each other.

Have you looked at what the "rapid fire" and "sniper training" skills will do for her ?

She is more a low lvl general, something for new starters to spend gems on. I dunno if BB want her to be able to run ali better. Like Doro says tho the skills will make a big difference.

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Originally Posted by Dorotheus

Have you looked at what the "rapid fire" and "sniper training" skills will do for her ?

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Yes I have looked at those, and I acknowledge that they will increase bowmen's and longbowmen's damage outputs. I don't think they're enough though. They're meant for all generals, and therefore must not be overly powerful. Would you compare a 20-55 damage bowman, 69-69 damage longbowman or even a 45-90 damage crossbowman to a flipping 60-120 damage cannoneer? My bet is no.

Of course, she adds AoE and assassination to their damage outputs, but the same vulnerabilities still lie with them. Both Vargus and Anslem can effectively deal with bandit's "attack weakest" units. Vargus forces them to attack the tanky units and reduces their damage, and Anslem straight up slaughters their damage output. Nusala? She cannot deal with them! She behaves like a normal general in this sense, in that she does not offer anything in this aspect. Added that she has only 165 slots, she can't even fit enough tanking units to absorb the damage! For a counter-attack, she must rely on the few remaining troops that are left and herself. Let's be honest here: She deals 1500 AoE, attack-weakest damage. Yeah sure that is cool, but does it match the potential damage of MG 100 cannoneers' damage i.e ~10000? Vargus 120 Mounted Marksmen's damage (11000)? Anslem 80 Besiegers' damage (16000)? She's puny! If there were e.g. 100 foxes or a Spawn of Hell in the camp, you can only use tanky units such as militia and soldiers to deal with that! If you even tried to load her with bowmen, you immediately lose 100 or 150 bowmen in a snap. For this reason, I think making her give damage to archers is not enough!

I have not played that many Alis thus far, so I will not comment extensively on the scenarios she faces with those. I do believe the same problems persist there too.

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Originally Posted by EasyTarget1

She is more a low lvl general, something for new starters to spend gems on. I dunno if BB want her to be able to run ali better. Like Doro says tho the skills will make a big difference.

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Yeah... Nah, I don't think there'll be any difference.
Even if you did buy her for levels 30-56, she would be a niche pick. She is great at many adventures, but some times even the MMA surpasses her. In those situations maybe you don't need that much AoE assassination (or as I like to call it, in-built cavalry) as much as you need more raw damage. Compare the damages of any bowman to a cav, or any marksman to a knight. It's unreasonable to do so!
Sure, if you get her as your first ever specialist general, then she is amazing by your previous standards. When you already have MG and MMA, then she brings so little to the table, even less than the other two champions do.

I am not into the technicalities...I dont 'do' technical stuff, I fly by the seat of my pants, and experience coupled with observation. I got Nusala at the start of the event. I am underwhelmed. I use her less than I use any of my other gens. As woody says,if you are starting out and get her at low levels then yes, great...but for fts and alis....well, I didnt yet see the need to take her on alis! Vargus helps more.

Unless there is a huge boost to marksman skill, i cannot see the point in it. Also the rapid fire and sniper training skills are very situational. Nusala needs bows/longbos to utilise this skill, but on alis/tailors where she faces first strike, which is often, most her troops will die. Therefore the skills are mainly useful in scenarios she is already useful, she just takes less losses.
She is 1st strike but her troops are not, so i do not see how the current skills (clearly meant to boost her) will do so.

Also, compared to vargus and anslem she pales in comparison in the mid/end tier adventures. If its intended fair play, but by comparison she seems just an MMA on steroids. By comparison im pretty sure Anslem could take the 2 mentioned skills, take some tank units, and prob perform better (as 99% of ali troops do half damage at least against him) Nusala can take tank units obv, but her skill is bow/longbo orientated, so u automatically lose out, and she has no tank abilities :L
Maybe Nusala is intended to have little use on these addies, all i can assume, but an option to boost her would be cool

Saying Nusala is underwhelming sorta misses the point of her, IMNSHO, or you had a very slanted view oif what she was about. (I know Anslem didn't seem veyr good on paper, but he's grown on me a lot over time) In fact if I could *buy* every Nusala off the "haters" I would gladly do so, and profit immensely from having done so. Though after the 10th Nusala or so I guess it'd lose it's charm a bit. For thos eof us not lucky enough to have found the game early on and now sitting on 6 MMAs she e.g. helps on a number of Ali B's where the guide makers helpfully assume everyone playing this game ever started in 2012.

Yea, she's not a straight up attacker general on Ali B's. So what? She is however a superb suicider saving you LOADS of elite and normal troops. I can't wait to see what havoc she'll bring with more carry capacity and boosted archers. Tremble if you don't have First Strike because the second wave will mop up easily. As slow as elite troops cook, she will make a big hole in a lot of Ali B camps. I still wish we could have bought all 3 from shop. Then I would have 2 Nusalas.

No Ali B can be played entirely by just 1 general, if you want to do it cheap. Nusala's main strength is bowsuiciding on Ali Bs.

And sometimes you'll end up playing something other than Ali Bs. Like events, and those times explorers can't keep up with providing enough YWCs. Or are you one of those assumes every one has 20+ explorers too as well as the 6 MMAs?
Honestly, all 3 generals have different strengths and weaknesses, and advs they are best at. That's kinda good you know. Or should BB make generals optimising Black Knight, Valiant Little Tailor and for YWC specifically only? Because nothing else should ever be played...
Nusala shouldn't be improved. Nor should Anslem or Vargus. She is fine the way she is, just learn to play to her strengths.

I think the point is a MMa on steroids is pretty useless on Alis. U can do alis with anslem and MGs aone, and Vargus and MGs alone. You could with nusala, but basically she would be waiting in the wind for sacs, if required. A small buff could definately alter this and would promote choice. I dont want over powered generals, not at all. I dont want it easy. I want options and variety.
As things stand i am one of the new players that def do not have an army of mmas. I picked Anslem because contrary to your assumption that he was bad on paper, id argue the opposite. He is very strong on tailors, very strong on alis, very strong on queens chain. He is even better than vargus i believe on BKs and many lower addies. Obv Nusala rules the easy tier adventures i just think itd be sad to make her redundant outside of events and the odd sac or easy adventure.
She doesnt need to be as strong as the other two, would just be nice to see a skill that made her an option to attack- not kill herself lol
Look at the woodcutter guide for all gens. She has no use but a suicide. Also as this is on the topic of skill tree, i disagree that the other generals wont improve. Adding 10% more men to anslem will make a massive difference, without looking at splash damage skills etc. Will nusala benefit as much from the other skills? prob not imo as her power is bad against high defence enemies- alis etc. This may mean she is no longer even the best for suicides...Thats why people are simply saying it may be a good idea to look at refining skills clearly made to boost her on the skill tree.
Maybe she is just intended to be an entry level general. Thats all i can assume really. Just seems a waste when u cant put troops in her on harder adventures because most the time they will be dead before they attack.

What would you guys suggest could be done to prevent the balance problems this idea implies ?

Boost marksman bonus so the troop type is actually useful, as they currently seem pointless in most scenarios. Alternatively, boost mounted marksman by an amount so she isnt insanely strong (as that troop type already is) but becomes a viable option for some attacks.
I confess its very hard to balance, but i think making an 'elite' exclusive marksman/bow type of skill could be implemented to add variety, without it being too strong.
I think woody is making some good suggestions, be good to hear other peoples ideas too, but we do need to be mindful of the fact that looking at the current skills on test Vargus and Anslem look like they will gain more of an edge. Thats not even considering how fast people can do even basic ali/tailor guides with test skills, as any vets can become MGs, and MGs turn into Super Major generals lol
Major generals are what generally determine speed most regulars do addys as they are the best general (with tav general being no2 for blocking purpose imo) and do not own large number of mmas or have generals in large enough quantity to do them 10-15 general blocks from spawn etc.
Obviously when your at that point, and have access to that resource and firepower, the largest benefit of skill tree will prob be bonus xp/travel times to addy.
Excilsor means we level faster as new players so getting to lvl 50-60 and the juicy stuff can take 6 months if you chose, so nusala could become redundant pretty fast without a small amount of tuning. The MMA already suffers from this. She is awesome at what she currently does, i just see no incentive to buy her now which is kinda sad, as i dont care about saving costs of recs or militia (by using her with bows on easy adventures). Hopefully we can find or promote a dif option.

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Originally Posted by SnowBlizz

Saying Nusala is underwhelming sorta misses the point of her, IMNSHO, or you had a very slanted view oif what she was about. (I know Anslem didn't seem veyr good on paper, but he's grown on me a lot over time) In fact if I could *buy* every Nusala off the "haters" I would gladly do so, and profit immensely from having done so. Though after the 10th Nusala or so I guess it'd lose it's charm a bit. For thos eof us not lucky enough to have found the game early on and now sitting on 6 MMAs she e.g. helps on a number of Ali B's where the guide makers helpfully assume everyone playing this game ever started in 2012.

Yea, she's not a straight up attacker general on Ali B's. So what? She is however a superb ...

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Does Vargus or Anslem behave like suiciders? I think not. This is what gets to me. You can't utilize Nusala for the most part without making her do a suicide run. Many attacks that the other two champions make leave them and a few troops of theirs alive. This doesn't happen with Nusala for the majority of times. I hope that there could be a change to her that addresses this. What's more: How many times can you utilize her during one Ali adventure? Once? Twice? Compare that to Vargus or Anslem. They get used more than a couple times in one addy. Yes, she can save many troops by doing sacs, but so can the other two, without dying. The fact that you can save troops using any of the three champions makes this discrepancy an issue.

Or maybe you will replace Cannoneers with Crossbows due to 'splash damage' and 'normal initiative' instead of 'last attack'.

All 3 Champions have their Special Skills and Nusala is doing her work where fitting in.

As doing a mix of FT/AB I find her very attractive and very often more useful than Anslem.

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Originally Posted by kke2100

Or maybe you will replace Cannoneers with Crossbows due to 'splash damage' and 'normal initiative' instead of 'last attack'.
All 3 Champions have their Special Skills and Nusala is doing her work where fitting in.
As doing a mix of FT/AB I find her very attractive and very often more useful than Anslem.

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More useful than Anslem? Do tell. Yeah sure, she does her job well, that is killing stuff and then dying afterwards. Anslem and Vargus don't die after they've killed stuff, why should Nusala then? I don't know how slowly you play the game, but I'd rather have a champion that I can use on one camp after another, once the attack is done. With Nusala you almost constantly have to wait 2 hours afterwards to use her again. That is poor performance! Even with the upcoming skill tree, you'd have to wait 1 hour and a few minutes between her attacks. That's simply outrageous.
Also. If I wanted crossbowmen instead of cannoneers, why would I choose Nusala over Major Generals? The notion of using XB means there are no flanking bandits. The only reason would be I want to use her to first clear the weaker bandits, and then use another general to finish the camp. AGAIN, she dies. Currently I see no situation where Nusala, -without another general's help, would kill a camp with bowmen flanking. Bowmen attack 2nd, so most bandits will be able to attack her army while the bowmen are clearing the weakest bandits. While this does mean in certain situations you will save troops, you pay that with time, which is a terrible tradeoff in my opinion.