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Thread: Updated goods and adventure price sheet

  1. #21
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    Okay, pretty nice, but there's one thing that's bothering me.

    The column "Coin gained per coin lost" is nonsical. If an adventure would cost 100 coin and only have a loot of 1 coin, it would say that i gain 0,01 coin per coin invested, whereas I actually loose 99 coins, so I don't gain anything. If you really want a "coin gained per coin lost" column, the right calculation would be:

    ("coins gained" - "coins lost") / "coins lost"

    However, all I really wanna know is profit, so you should just get rid of this column altogether and replace it with total profit.
    Last edited by popovitsj; 05.03.12 at 01:32.

  2. #22
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    I'm looking at the sheet hidden_reward_calculations, and it seems a bit off to me.

    It's a bit hard to explain, so I'll just use the example of the adventure Mothers love.

    The actual expected value of the adventure is in cell B28. This number is correct, provided that the numbers in cells B19:AG26 are accurate.

    However, in cell G28 you multiply this number by the value of cell E28 (E28*B28).

    Cell G28 is then used for further calculations. Either I'm completely overlooking something, or you're doubling and even tripling some of the adventure rewards.
    Last edited by popovitsj; 05.03.12 at 02:06.

  3. #23
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    Another thing I've noticed is that something the odds don't add up to 100%. For example U35:U38.

  4. #24
    Aunt Irma’s Favourite Writer Nukar's Avatar
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    @Popvitsj
    Thank you for your feedback. Ill try to explain why and how the sheets work as they do now:
    However, all I really wanna know is profit, so you should just get rid of this column altogether and replace it with total profit.
    We have discussed several options. At first we showed every number involved. This provided to much data to look at. It turned into a mess.
    So we had to make a choice which number we wanted to show.

    Raw coin profit (coins lost - coins gained) was an option. However it didn't fit with our ideas on how to visualize it. The way its set you can still see witch adventures make raw profit, those are > 1.

    The actual expected value of the adventure is in cell B28. This number is correct, provided that the numbers in cells B19:AG26 are accurate.

    However, in cell G28 you multiply this number by the value of cell E28 (E28*B28).

    Cell G28 is then used for further calculations. Either I'm completely overlooking something, or you're doubling and even tripling some of the adventure rewards.
    B28 = The value of loot for 1 loot spot.
    E28 = The number of loot spots possible for this adventure.
    G28 = the value of the loot for all loot spots combined.

    Since we want the formula for all adventure to work in the same way we added a loot spot counter. Pending the number of player that can attend an adventure this number varies between 1,2 or 3.
    The multiplier is need to get the total 'coin gained' per adventure.

    Another thing I've noticed is that something the odds don't add up to 100%. For example U35:U38.
    You are correct.
    As I explained in the update post we used the German wiki to get the loot drop numbers. Those do not always ad up to 100%.
    We tested the difference and saw the effect on the totals where neglect able. We also found that differentiation on the formulas made the risk on faults rise
    To mitigate this risk we decided to keep all the dividers to 100.

    Hope this answers all your concern.
    If you have more questions or remark please feel free to keep posting them.

    Cheers,
    Nukar

    PS for the future please edit your own post if your the last one in line. makes it easier for me
    Nevermind I give up

  5. #25
    Aunt Irma’s Favourite Writer Nukar's Avatar
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    I have gotten some questions about the sheet not working correctly. Sadly that is no something i can influance at this moment.

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    Nevermind I give up

  6. #26
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    Raw coin profit (coins lost - coins gained) was an option. However it didn't fit with our ideas on how to visualize it. The way its set you can still see witch adventures make raw profit, those are > 1.
    Let me assure you, most people will not understand that <1 indicates a loss. Also, it's simply not relevant information. Just give me net profit/loss.

    There is also a problem with the related column "Xp per coin lost". This is also not relevant information. The relevant version would be: "Coin won per XP gained" with the following calculation: (total coins gained - total coins spent) / total xp gained. In the case of adventures that cost coin you would be able to see how much you are paying for XP.

    B28 = The value of loot for 1 loot spot.
    E28 = The number of loot spots possible for this adventure.
    G28 = the value of the loot for all loot spots combined.

    Since we want the formula for all adventure to work in the same way we added a loot spot counter. Pending the number of player that can attend an adventure this number varies between 1,2 or 3.
    The multiplier is need to get the total 'coin gained' per adventure.
    Okay... so you're saying that if you do an adventure with 3 people the total loot will be 3 times as big. This is pretty weird actually but if it does work like this you should definately include multiple columns in your main sheet reflecting this. Don't forget many people may solo 3-player adventures. I've read somewhere that the XP does get devided equally, so all information should fit neatly into 1 table, looking something like this:

    Adventure (Name, Troop cost, Loot, 1P profit, 2P profit, 3P profit, Total XP, Cost per XP)

  7. #27
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    I can see running a 3 player solo for the XP.
    Why in the world would you not invite 2 more people in for an equal amount of rewards?
    They only need 1 bandit kill to get a FULL reward.
    Not doing so is throwing resources away.
    People will pay gold to do this.
    It is also great for lower level players in a guild to get a pile of resources they can sell.
    Any level player can be invited. Need not be level 26.

    One way a guild mate and I do it is to each start a 2 player and invite each other.
    Then we kill one camp in each others adventure and solo the rest of it.
    Double rewards for both of us

  8. #28
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    I agree with that SirRoy, but I think a lot of people don't know that the total reward is doubled/tripled if you invite other people (I for one didn't!). So just to make this clear I think it would be a good idea to put this into the sheet. I guess you might actually just put the profit columns for max players, but at least make a note somewhere that this profit is only true when the max amount of players are playing it.

    Btw, I've spotted another little flaw:

    You are using the price of bronze instead of bronze swords for your calculations. In cell buy_sell.Q5 and hidden_cost_calculations.D36, C8 and D8 should be replaced with C9 and D9.
    Last edited by popovitsj; 06.03.12 at 02:04.

  9. #29
    Aunt Irma’s Favourite Writer Nukar's Avatar
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    @ Popovitsj
    At this moment the sheets are ment to give information about your investments vs your rewards. If the formula is fully readable may differ per player, but think most will grasp the idea that it go's from best to worst (top to down). It still shows the same ratio.
    But we will take your arguments into concidderation so who knows...

    I do not think we will add guide like information. At this moment there is plenty of informtion here on these forums that can tell you lootsharing/ swapping is the way to go.
    But im glad these sheet indirectly helped you towards that knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by popovitsj View Post
    Btw, I've spotted another little flaw:

    You are using the price of bronze instead of bronze swords for your calculations. In cell buy_sell.Q5 and hidden_cost_calculations.D36, C8 and D8 should be replaced with C9 and D9.
    Cheers, it has been corrected!
    Last edited by Nukar; 06.03.12 at 10:02.
    Nevermind I give up

  10. #30
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    We agree that a table combining loot and xp is useful. However we will implement this formula instead since most adventures have negative net worth and it will contain easier to read numbers.

    Xp / (coins lost - coins gained).

    This will show how much xp is gained per lost coin.


    Your point about 1p and 2p columns is simply wrong. There is nothing interesting to be read from that. If you are soloing a three player adventure, you will be either swapping the additional slots, giving you the slots back eventually from other players and ending up with the total profit anyway. If you are cooperating with other players who will take the slots from you, we have to assume they will also be taking the proportional amount of losses.

    Quote Originally Posted by popovitsj View Post
    Let me assure you, most people will not understand that <1 indicates a loss. Also, it's simply not relevant information. Just give me net profit/loss.

    There is also a problem with the related column "Xp per coin lost". This is also not relevant information. The relevant version would be: "Coin won per XP gained" with the following calculation: (total coins gained - total coins spent) / total xp gained. In the case of adventures that cost coin you would be able to see how much you are paying for XP.



    Okay... so you're saying that if you do an adventure with 3 people the total loot will be 3 times as big. This is pretty weird actually but if it does work like this you should definately include multiple columns in your main sheet reflecting this. Don't forget many people may solo 3-player adventures. I've read somewhere that the XP does get devided equally, so all information should fit neatly into 1 table, looking something like this:

    Adventure (Name, Troop cost, Loot, 1P profit, 2P profit, 3P profit, Total XP, Cost per XP)
    Last edited by stalk; 06.03.12 at 22:52.
    Check out the goods and adventure price sheet by FWB

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