Science Rebalancing & Other Suggestions

[Proliator]

I can understand why BB would want to deter fast progress within the newly introduced science system BUT:


PROBLEM 1
For people who have several specialists (including premium ones), the current science system drastically hinders their advancement compared to others who don't have as many specialists. Yet with the Home Island science tree this won't be a problem because EVERYONE has ONE Home Island!!

The current science system simply makes anyone think TWICE about the drawbacks before opting to obtain any further specialists in the future (including premium, thats right, your source of income!!).

Why do people opt for premium? Because they want the best now, they want to do things faster, they want game play to be easier and less of a hassle/ inconvenience; believe me this science system does NOT make things EASIER or the SAME as others who do not have multiple (including premium) specialists, this science system is in FACT a LOT MORE time consuming and MORE of a hassle and inconvenience to us, your INVESTORS!!

I have 48 specialists (36 premium) and if the geologist tree is anything the other specialists will go by, then with a Lvl 5 Bookbinder UNBUFFED, I have to wait:
[35.8 x 48 (all specialists) = 1718.4/365.25 + 10% time wastage on collections] - NOT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THE INCREASED BOOKBINDING COSTS

5 YEARS 63 DAYS 23 HOURS 45 MINUTES 36 SECONDS to fully utilize my specialists ONLY... THAT'S RIGHT, OVER 5 YEARS!!! HOW LONG then for the other science trees ?

EDIT - Just allowed for the Cost Stepping Increase into my calculations... 36 YEARS, 9 MONTHS, 26 DAYS, 22 HOURS, 11 MINUTES, 32 SECONDS for all my specialists... I didn't realize choosing to donate would result with a LIFETIME COMMUNITY SERVICE or LIFE ON PAROLE !!

Using 48*11 Codex = 528 Codex; has 18 Cost Increase Stepping requiring a total of 4,914 + 48*10 = 5,394 Tomes, which in turn has 269.7 Cost Increase Stepping to require a total of 730,080 + 48*10 = 730,560 Manuscript


Even with CONSTANT buffs (WHICH ARE NOT EVEN AVAILABLE) some players who "invested in this game" will still need to spend OVER 2.5 YEARS to FULLY utilize the current science system for JUST the specialists.

WHY should ANYONE who has taken their HARD EARNED MONEY & INVESTED in this game, AND with whom the game RELIES ON in part TO SURVIVE, have to SUFFER so much ?


SOLUTION 1
Have ONE Science building research type (The Grand Academy) to pump say 98 books (30 codex, 30 tome, 30 manuscript - approximately 3 months 20 days 21 hours 17 minutes and 59 seconds with L5 Bookbinder and allowance for 10% time wastage on collections) into each science tree (Exploration/ Geology/ Military/ Home Island etc) then in accordance with what you've researched, pay gold to specialize into the talent system.


Example
For each geologist and provided you've researched the skill sets in "The Grand Academy"; to learn the current manuscript skill set, it could be 10coin each (max 100coin used), for the current tome skill set it would be 100coin each (max 1,000coin used), for the codex skill set it would be 500coin each (max 5,500coin used).


This proposal allows for EVERYONE to advance at the SAME TIME (EXACTLY like the HOME ISLAND science tree) and isn't anywhere near as affected by the number of specialists they have in comparison to the current specialist science system.

FAIR ?



PROBLEM 2
The current Science System products have a LIMITED LIFESPAN... meaning once you've used the relevant products to obtain the required talents, there is no future use for them, unless you reset your talents... and a fat chance at that when currently ONLY 50% of the total books used, are recovered unless you spend gems!!



SOLUTION 2 (Special thanks to KiwiNoob for the idea)
To ensure that the products of the new science system buildings ALWAYS remain viable, "The Grand Academy" (from Solution 1) should have a rate of decay (idea from KiwiNoob) which consumes a small number of these products daily to otherwise maintain the condition of the books used in the research.



Example
TIER 1 - 30 Manuscripts used
30 x 250 Simple Paper x 0.1% = 7.5
30 x 200 Nibs x 0.1% = 6.0


TIER 2 - 30 Tomes used
30 x 250 Simple Paper x 0.045% = 3.375
30 x 200 Nibs x 0.045% = 2.7
30 x 250 Intermediate Paper x 0.045% = 3.375
30 x 200 Printing Type x 0.045% = 2.7


TIER 3 - 30 Codex used
30 x 250 Simple Paper x 0.028% = 2.1
30 x 200 Nibs x 0.028% = 1.68
30 x 250 Intermediate Paper x 0.028% = 2.1
30 x 200 Printing Type x 0.028% = 1.68
30 x 250 Advanced Paper x 0.028% = 2.1
30 x 200 Book Fitting x 0.028% = 1.68


Total Consumption
Simple Paper = 12.975 consumed every 12 hours
Nibs = 10.38 consumed every 12 hours
Intermediate Paper = 5.475 consumed every 12 hours
Printing Type = 4.38 consumed every 12 hours
Advanced Paper = 2.1 consumed every 12 hours
Book Fitting = 1.68 consumed every 12 hours



OPTIONAL SUGGESTION
The amount consumed could also increase cumulatively per science tree researched

If you have the Geologist, Exploration and Military science trees fully researched then consumption will be 1+2+3 = 6 times base consumption

If you have Geologist, Exploration, Military and Home Island science trees fully researched then consumption will be 1+2+3+4 = 10 times base consumption
So MAX Consumption would be:
Simple Paper = 129.75 consumed every 12 hours
Nibs = 103.8 consumed every 12 hours
Intermediate Paper = 54.75 consumed every 12 hours
Printing Type = 43.8 consumed every 12 hours
Advanced Paper = 21 consumed every 12 hours
Book Fitting = 16.8 consumed every 12 hours


It becomes more difficult (but not prohibitive) to continue obtaining these basic book binding materials as they will be used up more and more for maintenance of the books used depending on how much research you have performed.


This would allow for the CONSTANT need for these basic materials in order to sustain the hard earned research, although once the other science trees are released, the base consumption amount needed to keep the books maintained can be adjusted.


If you fail to meet the maintenance demand, your research eventually decays and all your talent abilities specific to what research has decayed, are lost at a reasonable rate, 1 by 1 until you have nothing left or until the maintenance demand is met.


How to implement this?
Reset everyone's talents, refunding in full their used books, then implement the science research building type (each level opens a research tier), no one will be negatively affected, save for the coin needed to relearn the skill sets, which if done early enough will be minimal.


PROBLEM 3
Currently having several Generals on your island takes up considerable and valuable space and there is no need for them to be there once you've cleared your island of bandits.

SOLUTION 3
Allow the barracks once upgraded to lvl 5 and you've reached lvl 36, to keep these Generals inside of its walls and otherwise assign units to the Generals similarly to how we currently use explorers and geos from the star menu ONLY.

This Proposal takes away the current DISTASTE of either already having or obtaining several specialists and allows EVERYONE to benefit from the science system at the SAME TIME (just like it should) regardless of how many specialists a player has, while ensuring the constant need for and use of the new science products and providing much needed space to players of all levels and have ANY number of generals.

[King-Fero]

Why do you assume you should be able to max out every single skill on every single specialist you have? The slow progress of the science means that you need to make choices; doing an excessive amount of upgrades on geologists will allow you to spend less on other stuff, and vice versa. If all of your geologists start producing benefits when the cost of the science needed for that is no different to that of someone with just 1 geologist, how is that fair? It would either be too easy to get an army of jollies finding free ores and refilling mines that it would throw the game economy severely out of balance; or the cost of development would need to be readjusted so that maxing out the skill tree becomes much more costly, so costly that it would completely discourage lower level players from pursuing science at all. Neither are outcomes that I imagine BB is looking for.

And how are people with more specialists 'disadvantaged' in comparison to those with only few? Let's say I have 21 geologists, of which 3 are regular ones and 18 are jollies. Let's then take player X with 3 regulars and 2 jollies. We both play a few months, up to the point when we have been able to max out 2 geologists. I now have 3 regulars, 2 maxed out jollies and 16 default jollies. X has 3 regulars and 2 maxed out jollies. What can X now do better than me than he could before? What advantage have I lost in comparison to prior to adding skills?

You are using false logic if you think that now X will get all of his deposits with benefits, and I will only get a few since I discover the rest with default jollies. I have the same option to search for all deposits with my maxed out jollies, but in fact I doubt I'll do that. I'll have them run for the most vital ones, like copper mines during my morning rebuild and the rest of the time, whatever suits my needs. Meanwhile I can find all the less important deposits with the remaining jollies, allowing me to get the maximum benefit out of my skilled ones. X, however, will be sending his jollies for practically everything that he needs. It therefore takes him longer to get to the same benefits as me.

Let's, for the sake of argument, say that the best geo skill is finding free gold ore. Me and X both have 6 depleted copper mines, 6 near-collapse iron mines and 9 depleted marble deposits when we login on the morning. Both of us send out the maxed geos to get us bigger, possibly faster copper mines. I can simultaneously run all my extra jollies for the iron and marble. When X is done with the copper, he still has a ton of other deposits to discover. After the copper is discovered, I can send my skilled jollies to look for gold (hoping they'll bring some ore with them) and all my other deposits are sorted. If X does the same, it means he'll be spending half his day looking for the other deposits with his regular, slow geos. On the other hand, if he uses the skilled jollies for it, he will not be able to do the gold search like I do and thus loses the best benefits of his jollies. Note that the gold ore skill was just picked for the sake of argument; even if you disagree on what the optimal use of skilled geologists is, the reasoning I use remains valid. X won't be able to pursue the benefits as efficiently as he has less geologists at his disposal. Or then he'll be sending out his regular geos out throughout the day, something I don't envy at all.

In my opinion, when you have to choose between various uses for your books BECAUSE you can't max everything out, the importance of your choices gets highlighted. The choices would lose their significance if there was no opportunity cost. Compare the following scenarios:

Oh, I have option A or option B to max out, which one should I do? Whatever, I'll do option A now. I'll get option B next week so it doesn't matter.

Oh, I have option A or option B to max out, which one should I do? That's a tricky one, if I go for option A I'll need to manage without B for months. I'll really need to evaluate and consider this thoroughly so that I'll make the right decision.

Which of the above scenarios actually makes developing skills interesting?

[Proliator]

Before the science system, people did what they wanted based on their online time and style of play.

Scenario 1
Player A spends a lot of time online playing the game and only sees the need to have 1 geo so only opted for that one. (His choice and style of play given his lifestyle)

Scenario 2
Player B doesn't have a lot of time to play the game so opts to spend real money to obtain several specialists to give him greater flexibility to get the same job done in less time so he can spend what little time he does have, to be as competitive as Player A and enjoy the game as well. (His choice and style of play given his lifestyle)


Player A will have an enhanced player experience because the total specialists he uses will be maxed out proportionately faster than Player B who has several more specialists but doesn't have the time Player A has, to play the game.

If Player A because he has a lot of time to play only needed 1 Geo, then his 1 maxed out Geo will reap him rewards far faster without altering his online time and play style... whereas Player B while having the same 1 Geo maxed out, in order to be as competitive and reap the same rewards as Player A, now is forced to alter his play style and online time.

Why after Player B has paid real money for a convenience, must he then be inconvenienced by the same thing that caused him to make the purchase in the first place? To be just as competitive as Player A and reap the same rewards but without altering his online time and style of play.


This is not false logic, this is simple truths.


This science system is unbalanced for people who have multiple specialists and for those who paid to get that convenience.

I've simply stated a way for everyone to utilize the science system at the same time... by proposing a single building from which to conduct all research and giving players the option to spend gold on their specialists to utilize the talent system while remaining competitive and WITHOUT altering their style of play and online time.

Obviously anyone with multiple specialists will need to incur a heavier resource cost to max out their specialists but their use of the science system shouldn't be affected by how many specialists they have or have to alter their style of play and online time to be just as competitive or reap the same rewards they otherwise paid for to do the same thing, in less time.

How is the current science system making your decision to spend real money and obtain several premium specialists, appealing? It doesn't, it in fact acts as a deterrence for players from spending money to obtain several specialists because of the time frame involved in specializing them. They are theoretically losing income by doing this...

You might not care because its a F2P game but for those who've spent money and aided in keeping this online game you enjoy alive, the current science system is totally unfair because it offers a HUGE penalty to players who decided to spend real money.

[der_heikle_lukas]

This is not false logic, this is simple truths.


This science system is unbalanced for people who have multiple specialists and for those who paid to get that convenience.

Well, this is false logic and i have to agree with King-Fero, and before you say something i put some RL money in this game myself, and enough @ that, well above average. How are you @ a disadvantage if you don't take the time to play? I sure as hell have not a lot of time, hence spent some RL coins for gems to make the gameplay more enjoyable, yet you won't see me complaining that ppl who play F2P, and put no money in the game, but put lots of time and have better economies than me. I respect the fact that TSO is really F2P and everyone has a chance to be @ the top, provided they learn the mechanics and put something in it, being time for F2P or money for us old codgers with no time on our hands. It is what it is. No fun, no play, you don't have to...

On the other hand: where does it say you have to upgrade all your specialists. This assumption is so wrong i won't even get into it. Sure, there will be the odd guy having lots of money and spending 200 gems per manuscript making hundreds of them in the time it takes me to make even one, shall i go and say: Hey, please no instant making of manuscripts/tomes/codexes, just because i don't have the gems to do the same? And you have to believe me, i've seen fully 3 upped geos in a day.

So the scarcity of the said books makes them more valuable, and you'll think twice how you spend them before you go and just do that. Sure, i would love to have a queue for the bookbinder, but that has already been requested, twice , if i'm not mistaken, so let's hope something will be done about that. Other than that i'll upgrade precisely 2 geos, 2 or 3 explorers and all my vets and that is it. That is the reason i only have one upgraded geo @ the time, to get him to search for copper depos. I will, in the meantime make new books and wait till the military and explorer trees are published, so i can make an informed decision... The game does not go anywhere, i am here for a long time, hopefully, and not rushing to reach anything...

Have an amazing day!

[King-Fero]

Why after Player B has paid real money for a convenience, must he then be inconvenienced by the same thing that caused him to make the purchase in the first place? To be just as competitive as Player A and reap the same rewards but without altering his online time and style of play.


This is not false logic, this is simple truths.

.......

How is the current science system making your decision to spend real money and obtain several premium specialists, appealing? It doesn't, it in fact acts as a deterrence for players from spending money to obtain several specialists because of the time frame involved in specializing them. They are theoretically losing income by doing this...

You might not care because its a F2P game but for those who've spent money and aided in keeping this online game you enjoy alive, the current science system is totally unfair because it offers a HUGE penalty to players who decided to spend real money.

You are totally misusing the word penalty here. The player with lots of specialists will not be any worse off because of the science system, so by definition, he isn't being penalized. Will his geologists stop discovering deposits? No. Will his scouts stop finding free treasure? No. Will his veteran general lose more troops in battles? No. Will his money spent on these benefits be lost? No. I already tackled the issue of having only few geos to max out, let me copy-paste it for you:

And how are people with more specialists 'disadvantaged' in comparison to those with only few? Let's say I have 21 geologists, of which 3 are regular ones and 18 are jollies. Let's then take player X with 3 regulars and 2 jollies. We both play a few months, up to the point when we have been able to max out 2 geologists. I now have 3 regulars, 2 maxed out jollies and 16 default jollies. X has 3 regulars and 2 maxed out jollies. What can X now do better than me than he could before? What advantage have I lost in comparison to prior to adding skills?

You are using false logic if you think that now X will get all of his deposits with benefits, and I will only get a few since I discover the rest with default jollies. I have the same option to search for all deposits with my maxed out jollies, but in fact I doubt I'll do that. I'll have them run for the most vital ones, like copper mines during my morning rebuild and the rest of the time, whatever suits my needs. Meanwhile I can find all the less important deposits with the remaining jollies, allowing me to get the maximum benefit out of my skilled ones. X, however, will be sending his jollies for practically everything that he needs. It therefore takes him longer to get to the same benefits as me.

I acknowledged here that IF the player with only few geologists stays online the whole day to discover all his deposits with his skilled geologists he will be better off than a player sending out all geos and being logged off for the day. That is an advantage the player gains by his playstyle. If we are comparing the effects of the science system, we should keep other factors constant. Comparing a player with lots of specialists with little time to play to a player with a few geologists and little time to play, you'll see that the one with few geos hasn't received any edge over the one with lots of them. Comparing a player with lots of specialists with a lot of time to play to a player with a few geologists and a lot of time to play, the one with few geos likewise hasn't received any edge over the one with lots of them.

News flash: People who spend lots of time on the game will always have an edge over those who spend little time. You can compensate the difference with gem usage up to a point, but complaining that someone who plays the game the whole day is getting more than those playing only a short time is just silly.

It's equally silly to demand for PROPORTIONALLY same benefits just because you have more to begin with. The fact that a player with one geologist, after maxing it out, will have 100% of his geologists maxed out is not an argument for everyone having 100% of their geologists maxed out. If a player has 2 explorers and he gets an experienced explorer from the Easter event, his capacity to search for treasure and adventures will increase by 100%. Does that entitle players with 10 scouts to receive 10 experienced explorers so their capacity is increased 100% as well, or otherwise it's 'penalizing' these players with more scouts? Is the fact that upgrading a building only upgrades one building, and not every building of the same type, penalizing those who invested in building licenses?

Every aspect of the game provides bigger gains if you spend more time online. Trading is more profitable if you are online to repost trades on the cheap trade slots rather than post lots of trades on one go consuming the more costly slots. Time can also be used to search for offers in the TO to score some one-off good deals which you'd miss if you are offline. Needless to say, those with more time can play more adventures for greater loot income. Economy-wise, Those doing a round of baskets every morning and every evening have 18 hours of buff coverage on their production. If someone is online always when their buffs end, they'll be able to use shorter buffs to increase that coverage further. In the extreme case, it's possible to keep your island buffed with e.g. solid sandwiches instead. They expire more often and it'd take a silly amount of work to keep them running, but theoretically it would be more efficient as sandwiches require no sausages to produce. The benefits the skills from science give to you are similarly enhanced if you choose to spend your time keeping them running nonstop. Personally I prefer to have regular-sized marble deposits and log off rather than spend my day finding deposits with one geologist throughout the day. Wait, isn't that what I got the jollies for in the first place?

Short summary:

-Every player gets to skill up their specialists at the maximum rate the bookbinder allows. Having extra specialists on top of that is an asset just as it was before the science system
-Having the premise that every specialist should get maxed out is a bad starting point for an argument
-People spending a lot of the game gaining over those who only play a little can't be avoided. It is not something new that the science system has brought in, and F2P games will always have incentives for people to spend more time on them. Demanding for all the same gains without spending the time is unrealistic

[Dragonia]

You are totally misusing the word penalty here.

Not like im jealous, you buy, you have, youre happy, its cool and nice.
But looking from another point of view, and speaking about penalty that would be penalty
if you could upgrade all your 50 superb geos at once. And probably not you would be the one who feel penalised. lol...

[Proliator]

Somehow there seems to be a crossing of wires somewhere, so I've gone reading every official post on the science system before coming back here to comment further. I suggest a read of the officially released info and hopefully you will come to the same conclusion I have:

13/06/13 Change Logs
SCIENCE SYSTEM - PART 1
• The Science System has been implemented to the game.
• This is a special skill system which adds 7 brand new buildings to the game, new production chains and 9 new resources.
• The first part introduces a skill tree for geologists with 20 different skills.
• You can specialize each of your geologists individually. +++


07/05/13 Dev Diary Part 2 Science System and more!
"The Science System is a special skill system that will feature 4 skill trees. This new feature will enable you to specialize/customize your island and your specialists (e.g. geologists). The Science System includes 7 brand new buildings, many new production chains and 9 new resources. It will be implemented gradually"

"You will be able to produce special skill resources (Manuscript, Tome and Codex) that can be invested in the new skill trees. You will need better and more sophisticated books as you advance and progress in skills. You will also be able to select amongst several specializations/customizations types." +++

"The feature will allow you to customize, for example, your specialists and make them fit better into your preferred game play" +++

"The first skill tree that will be implemented deals with the Geologist (specialist). You can activate very useful skills for each of your specialist (individually). This means: You can customize each Geologist in a different way" +++


05/06/13 Video BB Backstage: Science System
Walter: "What is the science system? Its a new talent system we are going to introduce to the game, but it is going to come with new production lines and new resources that is going to allow you to customize your island to your needs, to your play style, specialize in each of your geologists, explorers and generals as well as your entire island"



Where in any of this officially released info, can you tell me, the developers do not want/expect you to fully utilize the science feature for all of your specialists or talent trees? In fact from reading this alone, I can conclude that they do expect you to and "make them fit better into your preferred game play." ... customized "to your needs, to your play style"

So if someone's preferred game play, play style and needs involve 48 specialists, why should they have to wait over 36 years to fully utilize the science feature?



My proposal gave a balanced way to research the entirety of the science feature but required you spend additional gold for each specialist to customize and enhance specific abilities based on their researched talent choice... the time spent to obtain the gold will be up to the player and how hard the player is willing to work for it. So a player with few specialists will still spend considerably less in terms of cost and time in fully utilizing the science feature compared to someone who has several more specialists.

While this is a game; in the real world, research is conducted over a period of time and once there is a breakthrough, there is time and cost required before implementing the new research; my proposal mimicked this behavior.

The proposal made, also gives a much needed long term viability for the science resources currently being produced which at the moment there is none in place.

Hopefully you can now understand where I am coming from.

[Dorotheus]

There is only one reason why some players have a shedload of specialists and that is because they brought them with cash, now those same players are demanding that they deserve a easy way to max out those specialists. This is like you saying to a car company, last year I brought the top of the range model therefore I am entitled to have the your new foot massager for tired drivers installed for free.

BB have designed the current system with certain objectives in mind, to give you what you want they way you're asking it will break the system. What's needed is for people to ask is what suggestion can we make which will make BB say yes that will work lets do it. Fortunately the answer to this is easy. Make books available in the chest. The fact you have a large number of brought specialists shows you are willing to finance BB by buying books.